Andrew Drummond sets new Direttissima record

jfb said:

I don't find it hard to understand. Some do it solo, some do it as a team. Those who do it as a team should not claim that they did it solo. Likewise, those who do it supported should not claim to have done it unsupported. I would not want to be on the jury that decides the difference between the categories.

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I think that is the distinction I am trying to not-so-eloquently state as I don't want to diminish anyone's accomplishments. Could a team be unsupported?

dug said:

I think that is the distinction I am trying to not-so-eloquently state as I don't want to diminish anyone's accomplishments. Could a team be unsupported?

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As someone who is not qualified to answer, I would say yes. Rock climbers have been using terms like "on-sight," "flash," "redpoint," and "pinkpoint" for quite a few years now to describe the style of an ascent. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Redpoint_(climbing)

A&A said:

Daytrip - I must respectfully say that you are grossly underestimating the value of pacers. Imagine a Zealand - Bond traverse and when you hit Lincoln Woods someone with fresh legs was there to encourage you, hike with you, and engage with you (you get the picture) it would be incredibly helpful (now times that by 250 miles - the length of our route). Also, the couple who set the record (myself and my husband) ran out of batteries and in one instance descended South Kinsman via dead headlamps and moonlight if you have taken that route you understand what a tedious task that is. So, I dare say that the "blow the doors off 56 hour" gap would have been negligible had we had the option of pacers and new batteries. If Drummond had not had those options or we had used those things the record would be very different. So yes, those are HUGE factors in the timing of a record. Again, I don't expect people to understand it the way I do as my name is attached to the record and now false reports.

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Really? 56 hours (3,660 minutes) works out to over 13.4 minutes per mile at 250 miles. That is a pretty massive speed difference. Do you feel pacers would allow you to go 25% faster than you would otherwise, especially when you are already pushing yourself to the limit for days on end? Even if you lost three nights at 8 hours each because you had no batteries for your headlamp you are still talking about almost 8 minutes per mile difference over the 250 miles. That seems like a pretty massive time difference to associate with pacers alone. There had to be other elements of each hike that were different to account for this gap (amount of time sleeping, water filtering time, time eating, clothing changes, etc). I just can't explain away 56 hours with fresh pacers cheering you on in spots and the weight of a few batteries. That is a pretty bold claim.

It would be interesting to review weather conditions for each attempt. There have been a couple of attempts in the past where temperature and humidity was well over the average. If I remember one attempt, the couple was out on RT 2 on 95 degree plus day where there was a high heat warning in place for northern NH (a rare occasion), one of the individuals blistered their feet walking on pavement and had to call it quits. Mats had similar weather on one of his attempts. At least some but not all of the time savings may simply come to down luck of the draw with the weather conditions.

peakbagger said:

It would be interesting to review weather conditions for each attempt. There have been a couple of attempts in the past where temperature and humidity was well over the average. If I remember one attempt, the couple was out on RT 2 on 95 degree plus day where there was a high heat warning in place for northern NH (a rare occasion), one of the individuals blistered their feet walking on pavement and had to call it quits. Mats had similar weather on one of his attempts. At least some but not all of the time savings may simply come to down luck of the draw with the weather conditions.

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I recall one of the attempts at a winter 48 FKT a few years back thwarted by warm weather and the resulting soft snow. I don't recall who it was (Farmer?) but I was sinking in my snowshoes on Zealand on New Years Day when some lanky, bearded fellow with running snow shoes came blazing along....I assumed it was him at the time since it was during that time period and this guy was moving.

Funny, I passed that couple on route 2 after reading about the planned attempt on here. I wondered why they weren't on the rail trail at the time.

I think to be fair, every rule for each distinction must be followed to a T. Without rules, it becomes unfair and yes, the small details do matter. The point of descending without headlamps verses someone who stashed batteries and always had light points that out in spades. Also, moral support does make a big difference, when your looking to throw in the towel and someone is there pushing you on, that's big. The standard 4k is no different. I've seen many arguments on small infractions trying to be passed off as no big deal. If your not concerned with the rules, just hike and do what you want. If you want to post a hike or feat like this under a certain category, every single detail must be honored and respected with complete honesty, or it doesn't count, imo. No different then a biker in the Tour de France using supplements.

Who made these so-called "rules" on the Fastest Known Times website? Who gave this website the legitimacy to set "rules" for anyone else? Let's play a game. Let's imagine I had made that website. I never would agreed to that. Who gave that person the authority to say that only people who hike alone can hold records? It's not true to AT or LT speed records, it's not true for the Western States 100, it's not true for rock climbing, and I'm sorry, but you can't seriously compare hiking with someone to blood doping, as "Sierra" just did.

There are people who post under a pseudonym, have a photo that doesn't reveal their identify, and list a false location, and they spend their weekends alone. There are others (my name is Brian Glenn), who show their faces, show their locations, and hike with others. Are we not all hikers? Is the world of hiking not big enough for all of us?

This guy just crushed it! Broke the record by 56 hours. Headlamp batteries? If a friend headlamp batteries in your backpack, let's be honest, you wouldn't even know it.

Say what you will, but I for one simply cannot recognize the statement that "if you don't hike alone, you didn't hike at all" as a legitimate statement. I don't need all people to be like me; you don't need people to be like you. If someone wants to hike alone, then hike alone. If someone wants to hike with someone else, then hike with someone else.

Is the world really not big enough for all of us?


Brian

B the Hiker said:

Who made these so-called "rules" on the Fastest Known Times website? Who gave this website the legitimacy to set "rules" for anyone else? Let's play a game. Let's imagine I had made that website. I never would agreed to that. Who gave that person the authority to say that only people who hike alone can hold records? It's not true to AT or LT speed records, it's not true for the Western States 100, it's not true for rock climbing, and I'm sorry, but you can't seriously compare hiking with someone to blood doping, as "Sierra" just did.

There are people who post under a pseudonym, have a photo that doesn't reveal their identify, and list a false location, and they spend their weekends alone. There are others (my name is Brian Glenn), who show their faces, show their locations, and hike with others. Are we not all hikers? Is the world of hiking not big enough for all of us?

This guy just crushed it! Broke the record by 56 hours. Headlamp batteries? If a friend headlamp batteries in your backpack, let's be honest, you wouldn't even know it.

Say what you will, but I for one simply cannot recognize the statement that "if you don't hike alone, you didn't hike at all" as a legitimate statement. I don't need all people to be like me; you don't need people to be like you. If someone wants to hike alone, then hike alone. If someone wants to hike with someone else, then hike with someone else.

Is the world really not big enough for all of us?


Brian

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I agree. It's a game. FKT is only one of the game creators. If you want to be officially recognized by FKT play by their rules. The article cited by The Union Leader in the OP is incorrect according to the rules of FKT. I can understand anyone holding a record on FKT being legitimately upset by that article. IMO I think everyone has a right to create their own game and rules and expect others if they want to play their game to adhere to their rules. Unfortunately FKT and their members seem to be moving in a direction where they are under the impression they are the last word in these types of events. Or at least they come across that way to me personally. Alex stated what he was up too from the beginning. Part of which was his hike was to be self supported. He has also been very clear where he stands on others being along on his hike and his stance on pacing. He created his own game while also making it clear that he is not a FKT member. Again unfortunately for FKT they have made statements already about Alex's achievement on their website in what seems to be an attempt to categorize his hike within their game and rules. I am under the impression Alex had nothing to do with that considering he is not a member there. Personally I have formed my opinions about this event in relavance to the parameters set out by Alex on his website and Facebook page. It is also unfortunate that the media has not done a better job at reporting this event because a lot has been misconstrued.

Who made these so-called "rules" on the Fastest Known Times website? Who gave this website the legitimacy to set "rules" for anyone else? Let's play a game. Let's imagine I had made that website. I never would agreed to that. Who gave that person the authority to say that only people who hike alone can hold records? It's not true to AT or LT speed records, it's not true for the Western States 100, it's not true for rock climbing, and I'm sorry, but you can't seriously compare hiking with someone to blood doping, as "Sierra" just did.

There are people who post under a pseudonym, have a photo that doesn't reveal their identify, and list a false location, and they spend their weekends alone. There are others (my name is Brian Glenn), who show their faces, show their locations, and hike with others. Are we not all hikers? Is the world of hiking not big enough for all of us?

This guy just crushed it! Broke the record by 56 hours. Headlamp batteries? If a friend headlamp batteries in your backpack, let's be honest, you wouldn't even know it.

Say what you will, but I for one simply cannot recognize the statement that "if you don't hike alone, you didn't hike at all" as a legitimate statement. I don't need all people to be like me; you don't need people to be like you. If someone wants to hike alone, then hike alone. If someone wants to hike with someone else, then hike with someone else.

Is the world really not big enough for all of us?


Brian

"The point of descending without headlamps verses someone who stashed batteries and always had light points that out in spades."

That's an absurd comparison. Either of these competitors could have stashed a few extra batteries in their pack and never have felt it.

Amicus said:

"The point of descending without headlamps verses someone who stashed batteries and always had light points that out in spades."

That's an absurd comparison. Either of these competitors could have stashed a few extra batteries in their pack and never have felt it.

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Where is it stated that the stashed batteries were used in a headlamp for descending at night or hiking at night anyhow. That is an assumption. If you take the time to watch Alex's videos he clearly talks about the stashed batteries and for their use being so he would be able to take more video. More video being more video that could be shared with folks like us. Which was a stated goal.

My first thought was to delete my post, but it's been commented on and that wouldn't be fair. I based my comments on the post detailing some of the rules, my mistake. I know very little about the whole FKT world, mainly because after over 30 years of hiking, I never could have come close to any records like that, not remotely. My intention was not to take away from this guy's incredible time, ( yet my post seem to do that). For the record, I just hike, don't even keep records of my hikes. I enjoy reading about the various feats like this one, the Grid, SSW and so on mainly because I find it all impressive. I'm only posting this because the guy deserves a lot of credit and when I put my foot in my mouth, I admit it. Hike on, whatever speed that may be.

To throw a question out there for thought, and again, not to take anything away from an amazing accomplishment, but here is the question:

If there are rules to a game, and you don't draw the line where the rule is clearly written, where do you draw them? With a rule, everyone understands. When that line becomes gray, people drift in their interpretation and small violations of the rules become "no big deal." At one point does a violation that is no big deal become something that makes all the difference?

A few batteries is something no one would likely notice in their packs. Does it violate the wording of the rule? It seems to. Did it make a huge difference in time? I doubt it. Did it make a difference? I think so. If it had been 2 pounds of food, would that matter? 10 pounds? Without a clear rule, it gets very messy.

Should we invoke PV=nRT to try to explain this?

"Who gave this website the legitimacy to set "rules" for anyone else?"

It only has the legitimacy that anyone ascribes to it. It's the same for the AMC 4000' experience. If you want the patch, you meet the rules. They made up the requirement for 200' prominence, and they made up the rule for what qualifies as winter, and what doesn't. If you comply, you get the patch. If you don't, you can still say that you hiked all of them, but you won't have it "ratified" by the AMC.

I don't see this a being any different. Anyone can comply by the FKT rules, and receive their "ratification" for whatever it's worth, or anyone can claim to have done whatever they desire, but without that ratification.

Anyone is also able to create a "Fastest time known' or FTK website or organization and do it's own ratification with its own rules, and over time one or the other of the groups will become the most accepted authority.

Setting the rules depends on the authority of the rulemaker, and that includes the credibility of same and willingness, by tradition or whatever other voluntary motivation, to follow those rules.

The 4000 footer club, ADK 46ers etc. are credible sources and have rules many of us are willing to follow to earn recognition for achieving their objective. I'm sure that most of us appreciate that when we follow those rules it is not just for the recognition but for the joy of expanding our horizons and refreshing our bodies and spirits. And a lot of the obscure lists can be a lot of fun ... how you follow the rules is up to the dictates of your conscience.

I'm disappointed with the commercialization and subtle braggadocio of some of these fetes, as impressive as they may be, for they get enlarged out of proportion to what is precious about everyday hikes.

expat said:

"Who gave this website the legitimacy to set "rules" for anyone else?"

It only has the legitimacy that anyone ascribes to it. It's the same for the AMC 4000' experience. If you want the patch, you meet the rules. They made up the requirement for 200' prominence, and they made up the rule for what qualifies as winter, and what doesn't. If you comply, you get the patch. If you don't, you can still say that you hiked all of them, but you won't have it "ratified" by the AMC.

I don't see this a being any different. Anyone can comply by the FKT rules, and receive their "ratification" for whatever it's worth, or anyone can claim to have done whatever they desire, but without that ratification.

Anyone is also able to create a "Fastest time known' or FTK website or organization and do it's own ratification with its own rules, and over time one or the other of the groups will become the most accepted authority.

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Well put. Reminds of this: https://xkcd.com/927/

I am late with my response, but one comment I have. You cannot compare a solo hike and a partner hike. It's totally different. Solo hike is much harder for so many reasons. It's different categories, period.

Good grief. Andrew destroyed the previous record. 56 hours is a HUGE margin. I don't think a stash of batteries or an occasional companion made the difference.

It's unfortunate that bickering about such minor details and "rules" becomes the topic of discussion, but that's pretty much par for the course here at VFTT, ain't it?

Congrats to Andrew for smashing it up in good shape.

Heeheehee...medal count...94 for the us of a

Tim Seaver said:

Good grief. Andrew destroyed the previous record. 56 hours is a HUGE margin. I don't think a stash of batteries or an occasional companion made the difference.

It's unfortunate that bickering about such minor details and "rules" becomes the topic of discussion, but that's pretty much par for the course here at VFTT, ain't it?

Congrats to Andrew for smashing it up in good shape.

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I'd like to see your Baseball HOF ballot. I guess the question is, if he could have broken it anyway, why didn't he? It's not like he's about to hit free agency.