Hiker Rescue 9/4 - Heading down Huntington Ravine Trail

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dug said:
Define "nowadays"?

I've mentioned this before, but incidents like these have been happening for at least 45 years. As long as I've been in these mountains. I committed some of them myself.

Curious, for the sake of argument, what you would have said if you saw me wearing a pair of shorts, flip-flops, a t-shirt, hat, carrying a beer as I walked around between Adams and Jefferson one evening around 6:00 pm. Is that what one could consider 'unprepared'?

As our populace expands, we reach new places. Not always with the best knowledge and experience to do so. I'm sure there are as many issues with biking, diving, skydiving, climbing, etc. The hope is you learn the hard way, don't kill yourself or anyone else in the process, and become the wiser.

If I were to take a poll, how many on here could truthfully say they've never done anything that would've made the papers and we'd shake our heads at them if it happened today? I can think of probably a dozen infractions.
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OK. Let me replace "nowadays" with "for as long as I've been seriously hiking". I've been hiking for about 30 years but only over the past 5 years have I gone up enough and done enough miles to see trends with the people I see, articles I read, etc. The age of the cell phone and apps that really harness their abilities has been relatively brief and yes I think that is creating an increase in the amount of ill prepared people who wander out into the woods.

If I saw you in flip flops and a t-shirt strolling by Thunderstorm Junction my first thought would probably be that you're a total moron. You'd have to add context to your statement for me to make a better judgement. Are you alone? Is it a fairly dry night? Relatively warm? What's the forecast for the night? Can I see your legs and tell if you have the characteristic musculature of someone who clearly hikes on a regular basis and probably has strong ankles? Would we have a conversation? If you're a mile from Madison Hut where you're staying for the night, told friends where you were going and the sun wasn't setting for another two hours I probably wouldn't think too much about it. If you were drenched in sweat, red faced and asked me "How far is it to the top?" I'd probably think. Yup, I'll be ready about that moron in the paper tomorrow.

"Prepared" is only a function of what your plan is. If your plan was to travel an easy mile or so on a nice Summer night, catch a sunset and head back to the hut for a hot meal with a roof over your head than I say it sounds like you had a great night. If your plan was to hit Adams and Jefferson and get back to your car over at the Caps Ridge trailhead then I'd say you are wildly unprepared and negligent. Doesn't mean you couldn't do it and haven't done it but the probability of something happening to you is certainly far higher than most if you are dressed as you describe. People have gone over Niagara Falls in a barrel and survived unscathed. Does that mean they aren't totally nuts playing such small odds?
 
I think a point missed regarding the Huntington Ravine Trail is the fact that many of the rescues performed on this trail are NOT the result of an injury but are rather because people on the trail have totally freaked out and were unable to continue out of fear. What other trail in the Whites has such a large number of rescues based on fear rather than an actual medical situation? I think that sets this trail apart as unique.
 
DayTrip said:
I think a point missed regarding the Huntington Ravine Trail is the fact that many of the rescues performed on this trail are NOT the result of an injury but are rather because people on the trail have totally freaked out and were unable to continue out of fear. What other trail in the Whites has such a large number of rescues based on fear rather than an actual medical situation? I think that sets this trail apart as unique.
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Maybe so, but being rescued because you hiked in over your head, is the same as being rescued because your in Edmonds Col wearing flip flops and jeans with no gear in a cold rain. Lack of knowledge and getting yourself in a situation you cannot handle on your own. It all goes in the same pot to me.
 
sierra said:
Maybe so, but being rescued because you hiked in over your head, is the same as being rescued because your in Edmonds Col wearing flip flops and jeans with no gear in a cold rain. Lack of knowledge and getting yourself in a situation you cannot handle on your own. It all goes in the same pot to me.
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Yes they're all rescues but when you call for rescue on a day when you're well equipped and the weather is good purely because you find the terrain too unnerving to continue I think that speaks to the unusual danger that Huntington presents. You'd never do that in Edmands Col or some other trail. I just think the trail warrants different treatment than most others in the Whites. Flume Slide was mentioned as similarly tough but there are by-passes through the scrub at most of the ledges that you can avoid the danger. On Huntington the dangerous, unnerving ledges are already the least difficult route. There are no safe alternatives to skipping. You are forced to deal with it. Turning around after a certain point is worse than continuing for most so that adds to the danger.
 
DayTrip said:
OK. Let me replace "nowadays" with "for as long as I've been seriously hiking". I've been hiking for about 30 years but only over the past 5 years have I gone up enough and done enough miles to see trends with the people I see, articles I read, etc. The age of the cell phone and apps that really harness their abilities has been relatively brief and yes I think that is creating an increase in the amount of ill prepared people who wander out into the woods.

If I saw you in flip flops and a t-shirt strolling by Thunderstorm Junction my first thought would probably be that you're a total moron. You'd have to add context to your statement for me to make a better judgement. Are you alone? Is it a fairly dry night? Relatively warm? What's the forecast for the night? Can I see your legs and tell if you have the characteristic musculature of someone who clearly hikes on a regular basis and probably has strong ankles? Would we have a conversation? If you're a mile from Madison Hut where you're staying for the night, told friends where you were going and the sun wasn't setting for another two hours I probably wouldn't think too much about it. If you were drenched in sweat, red faced and asked me "How far is it to the top?" I'd probably think. Yup, I'll be ready about that moron in the paper tomorrow.

"Prepared" is only a function of what your plan is. If your plan was to travel an easy mile or so on a nice Summer night, catch a sunset and head back to the hut for a hot meal with a roof over your head than I say it sounds like you had a great night. If your plan was to hit Adams and Jefferson and get back to your car over at the Caps Ridge trailhead then I'd say you are wildly unprepared and negligent. Doesn't mean you couldn't do it and haven't done it but the probability of something happening to you is certainly far higher than most if you are dressed as you describe. People have gone over Niagara Falls in a barrel and survived unscathed. Does that mean they aren't totally nuts playing such small odds?
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My point is this isn't a new argument. Even since the dawn of VFTT pushing 20-ish years ago, this is a constant comment. I believe it's finally outlasted 'dogs on the trails', but still far behind post-holing.

As for crossing paths near Edmunds Col, the answers are:

Alone? No
Dry? Yes
Forecast? More of the same
Warm? For September
"Characteristic musculature"? I can't even begin to guess what that means. My hiking party at times encompassed a 60-year old women; a guy who did Ranier and several peaks in Patabonia, the DAKS 46, and eventually the NH4K; a short pudgy guy; a dog; one really fit guy; one semi-fit guy. OBTW...I have extremely weak ankles, brought on by decades of hiking and soccer. My PT actually laughed at my gate.
Conversation? Maybe...I don't talk to people much on the trail. Too busy huffing and puffing most of the time.

My point is, and I don't mean to slam you, is that it's virtually impossible to guess someone's condition just by seeing them. I've often said half the people I see think I carry too much, the other half think I don't carry enough. Since my plan was unknown, a judgement was made about me being a moron. In fact, we were resting nearby for a few hours to watch the stars and to have a few brews. Our tent (which we didn't need), bags, mats, cook kick, raingear, etc. etc. etc. were all out of site. We went out for a walk to stretch our legs. We got plenty of comments and finger wagging from people.
 
dug said:
My point is, and I don't mean to slam you, is that it's virtually impossible to guess someone's condition just by seeing them. I've often said half the people I see think I carry too much, the other half think I don't carry enough.
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That was my point as well. Appearances can be deceiving. To reference the famous quote: "Better to be thought a fool than to open's one mouth and remove all doubt". I've had many of my initial impressions resoundingly confirmed by short conversations with the people in question. I'm sure these issues have existed for decades but seem more prevalent now because of social media and the availability of the information. My own personal observations and conversations in the past 5 years that I've been seriously hiking are that there are more unprepared, uninformed hikers on the trails than when I started. NY DEC and NH F&G seem to be in agreement based on articles they have been quoted in. I suppose it is a cyclical thing as the popularity of hiking comes and goes. We seem to be at a cyclical peak right now I guess. The first time I climbed Mt Washington many, many years ago I wore a Patriots hat and sweatshirt, denim shorts, some of the most worn out (and untied) basketball shoes you've ever seen and brought only a Snickers bar and a bottle of Gatorade. My first Winter "attempt" on Washington was decidedly more idiotic. I don't mean to come off as some sort of elitist hiking snob passing judgement on all who pass me by. I've learned a lot over the past several years and it has really increased my awareness of just how many people hike now that are wildly unprepared for what they are doing.

P.S. All I meant by "characteristic musculature" was that people who hike regularly tend to have well developed leg muscles (calfs, quads, etc) that stand out from other people. By no means a dead perfect indicator but you can usually tell people who hike regularly. And to your reference to age, I've seen women way into their 50's with legs that would wipe the floor with women half their age. I see plenty of people well into their 60's and beyond whose conditioning is far beyond mine. In hiking, age is generally not one of the factors I place a lot of stock in when I'm "judging" people as they walk by.
 
sierra said:
Maybe so, but being rescued because you hiked in over your head, is the same as being rescued because your in Edmonds Col wearing flip flops and jeans with no gear in a cold rain. Lack of knowledge and getting yourself in a situation you cannot handle on your own. It all goes in the same pot to me.
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This is spot on. You can lead a horse to water but you can't make them drink. They are called "Mountains"? They deserve the respect that the word "Mountains " evoke. Unfortunately there will always be people that do not do their homework. Many of them get away with a lot without doing their homework and their behavior is reinforced for doing so. Therefore the pattern of that behavior repeats itself. Thence a small percentage will get spanked. If we put more sheepdogs in the field more sheep will come.
 
DayTrip said:
As much as we'd like it to be the opposite, there are always going to be throngs of hikers who never look at a guide book or map and have no clue what they're doing. If a single simple sign avoids one such incident a year, the possibility of a serious injury, and the likely waste of SAR time and resources on said uninformed hiker then I think it's worth it.
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Or that simple sign could have the opposite effect. Like people taking grinning selfies of themselves next to the "Dangerous Trail" sign before climbing the ravine, and posting it all over social media.

Pretty soon there would be a List of Trails With Danger Signs and Dangerous Trail Meetup Groups.

Maybe even Danger Patches?
 
There was a post on FB this morning, from a guy that froze on Huntington Ravine and wanted advice on other hikes. There were multiple responses saying he should just go back and try it again, because it's so awesome. Social media canbe fun, but you get what you pay for advise wise.
 
I'm in Denver as I write this....my first time here in the Rockies and first time hiking some tall mts. Pretty popular mountains here: Bierdstat, Grey's, Torreys. Besides the very well kept signs at the trailhead NO other signage.

I'm biased and pretty much anti-sign and believe the mts are 1 area where YOU must take responsibility for knowing at least the basics of where you are and what your attempting. I don't believe signage is the answer. Didn't work for speed limits :)
 
Dingo said:
A somewhat related story...



I gave them some strongly-worded advice against climbing Washington without the proper gear, research and experience, but I think it fell on deaf ears, as they were hell-bent on trying Washington again the next day. I also told them that should something go wrong, a rescue could be quite costly.
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This past 4th of July I was doing the Tuckerman's Ravine Trail. I had a group of 3 guys (I'd say early 20s) come up to me with a road map and ask where they were on the trail. I pointed to Mt. Washington on the map and told them this is where they were. I then went on to explain to them that what they needed was a trail map. Thankfully I had an extra one and gave it to them to keep after pointing out on the TRAIL map where they were. We were at the Hermit Lake Shelter and these guys had no hiking gear whatsoever and very small bottles of water. I explained to them that the rest of the hike would be more difficult especially without hiking gear, water and proper amount of food. Hopefully it did some good.
 
dug said:
Define "nowadays"?



Curious, for the sake of argument, what you would have said if you saw me wearing a pair of shorts, flip-flops, a t-shirt, hat, carrying a beer as I walked around between Adams and Jefferson one evening around 6:00 pm. Is that what one could consider 'unprepared'?
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Hopefully you would at least have a backpack on so I could ask if you had an extra beer. :)
 
BISCUT said:
I'm in Denver as I write this....my first time here in the Rockies and first time hiking some tall mts. Pretty popular mountains here: Bierdstat, Grey's, Torreys. Besides the very well kept signs at the trailhead NO other signage.

I'm biased and pretty much anti-sign and believe the mts are 1 area where YOU must take responsibility for knowing at least the basics of where you are and what your attempting. I don't believe signage is the answer. Didn't work for speed limits :)
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Yeah... need to be aware of where you are all the time for sure. Less need for signs anyway though, as fewer trails (sometimes no trails at all) and less vegetation, so more dependent just on lines of sight. Plus with the winters above treeline any signs would get beat up pretty bad and need frequent replacing. If you can get away from the Grays/Torreys/Evans/Bierstadt hordes you will have the place to yourself. Longs might be iffy, if only because of shorter days and a long, long hike.

You should have fantastic weather- though PM thunderstorms have not completely quit for the year. No consistent snow yet! We probably have a good 2 weeks more of ideal hiking conditions before it starts to turn wintry more consistently.
 
DayTrip said:
I wouldn't beat yourself up too much about it. It is quite likely if you were more insistent on him turning around he wouldn't have anyway. I've come across a few people in my travels that I have felt obligated to tell them to turn around and/or they were getting in over their head and the usual reaction is to ignore me and be irritated at the suggestion.
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Have you ever heard "Pay them no attention. They're old." (This happened at the top of the Flume Slide Trail about 15 years ago. I must be ancient by now.)
 
I once overheard a lady tell a guy "He's going to die up there" as I passed by.
 
jfb said:
I once overheard a lady tell a guy "He's going to die up there" as I passed by.
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I ran into a threesome just starting up the cone of Washington in the winter. They had summer boots and were trying to kick steps in the bulletproof snow. I had just come down from the summit and was in twelve point crampons and had my axe out. The girl was basically following two guy's who's balls far exceeded the size of their brains. I stopped to say hello and she took advantage and said, " shouldn't we turn around?" One of the guy's said " you made it, I think we can" I replied, " I give you less then 50% chance of surviving if you keep climbing" She turned around, they continued. I walked her down the summer Lions Head route, where she sat in the Lean-to, to await her men. I went and got a beer in North Conway.;)
 
sierra said:
I ran into a threesome just starting up the cone of Washington in the winter. They had summer boots and were trying to kick steps in the bulletproof snow. I had just come down from the summit and was in twelve point crampons and had my axe out. The girl was basically following two guy's who's balls far exceeded the size of their brains. I stopped to say hello and she took advantage and said, " shouldn't we turn around?" One of the guy's said " you made it, I think we can" I replied, " I give you less then 50% chance of surviving if you keep climbing" She turned around, they continued. I walked her down the summer Lions Head route, where she sat in the Lean-to, to await her men. I went and got a beer in North Conway.;)
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Your story is a perfect example of why I don't bother giving advice to other hikers, unless they ask for it.
 
"Is this the trail to Mount Washington?" has been asked of me on at least one occasion on a ravine on the other side of the mountain. I also came across a hiker headed up Boott Spur with no water and thirsty. I was on the way down and generally being one to help out, I gave him some water. He asked. At the time, it was a shock that he continued to head UP toward the summit. He had along way to go. This mind set no longer surprises me. I've quoted it a few times but the WMG has the best line (or at least old editions do): "The Mountain spares most fools."

Sierra - that's about as direct as you can be with that line. Good for you to provide an easy out.

The only time I give unsolicited advice anymore is when I see children. The last time I did, a guy nearly bit my head off for suggesting the overweight/overworked adolescent he was driving up Ammo Ravine could use a rest and some food. He was more interested in teaching the child to "dig down deep" apparently. Hard to accept sometimes, but we each make our own decisions (as adults) and get to live with the consequences.
 
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