Butt sledding haters?

Why do some hikers consider what they do to be the only serious pursuit that should be done on trails? Is it not, in and of itself, just a mere act of goofing off. I been getting some public hate and attempts at shaming for sledding down the trails in the Whites. It was just blamed for making boilerplate ice on the Osceolas after the last thaw. People say it is not safe for others using the trails. As if someone slipping on steep sections and tumbling by accident is not even more dangerous with the person 100% out of control. Do we really need to be hiking in winter at all? Just being out there puts SAR in risk of having to go out and rescue someone in winter. Of course, a "serious" hiker will tell you it is different, they are hiking and bagging summits towards a list that is of major importance in their lives. Some have suggested that sledding should be considered negligent and worthy of costs for rescues, but think little of going up steep pitches of ice wearing crampons as if that is safe. Come on, get over it people, we are all just goofing off in the outdoors, and yes, it comes with risks, but the rewards are worth it.

I think the technical term is "glissading". Tell them you are practicing your alpine skills. Shouldn't people be prepared for hiking icy trails in the Winter? Isn't it a given? What difference does it make id someone butt slides down a trail, or it turns to ice from the noemal freeze/thaw cycle?


Haters gonna hate.

I saved myself a few steps butt sliding down a section of icy trail on valley way, Saturday. Granted most of it was inadvertant and I only stopped because my hiking poles got wedged beteen the snow and my crotch, somehow. It was a close thing.

It's a non-issue until it makes the Accidents notes in Appalachia. Then it might become something to regulate. Are you talking "sitting glissade" or actual plastic sled sliding on trails? I think the former is part of hiking. The latter can be more problematic. On trails like Tuckerman Ravine the plastic sleds can pick up some considerable speed. If the operator is out of control and slams into someone then it's a problem. On most other trails, like Osceola I can't see how anyone could get up to that level of speed without colliding with a tree at the first turn. In which case it might still make the Accidents notes section but for a different reason than just mentioned.

Sledding

I am all about sledding on trails. I go slowly, and don't freak anyone out by doing it around them. I sled Tuckermans all of the time. You can do a nice pace without danger if you aren't an ass about it and if it isn't crowded. Webster Jackson loop is also a good one.

egilbe said:

What difference does it make id someone butt slides down a trail, or it turns to ice from the noemal freeze/thaw cycle?

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Most people's posteriors are shaped differently than the bottom of their snowshoes, so the resulting frozen track can take on a shape resembling a narrow half pipe that can be difficult to maneuver for subsequent hikers.

I concur with the danger of buttsliding East Osceola...I've been nearly taken out multiple times on that trail, once at such force that the buttslider bent their snowshoe frame.

There have been significant buttsliding injuries over the years, including a significant leg fracture that required an SAR carry out into the wee hours of the morning.

Funny, I have almost been hit by more skiers than by people sliding over the years.

egilbe said:

Haters gonna hate.

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This.

I passed a group of 3 on Osceola a few weeks ago who were just angry - I don't know how, it was a beautiful day. Hardpack all the way from the Kanc, so my group had on microspikes. But the first person and her companion couldn't help but remark that, had we been wearing snowshoes like good hikers, we wouldn't have sunk up to our knees (oooooh!!) when we stepped off the trail to let her pass. And we were definitely going to post hole the rest of the way out...going down the same trail we had just come up in our microspikes... Also, my Spantiks were 'extremely aggressive footwear' for the planned hike. We joked about it the whole way down, my 'aggro footwear.'

Haters gonna hate.

It's that time of year again Really folks...I wish everyone would just go back to wearing their super wide 30 year old wooden snowshoes instead of those super narrow plastic ones. I just can't fit in the track anymore. While your at it leave your skis at home because these are hiking trails and they are way to narrow to be skied on anyhow. If your postholing remember every time you do so a tiny new born kitten dies. Finally when you see me on the trail wether I am going up or down step out of the way and sink up to your eyeballs. I'll be the one wearing Lasportiva Olympus Mons with the 50 year old Flexible Flyer strapped to my back.

bcskier said:

It's a non-issue until it makes the Accidents notes in Appalachia. Then it might become something to regulate. Are you talking "sitting glissade" or actual plastic sled sliding on trails? I think the former is part of hiking. The latter can be more problematic. On trails like Tuckerman Ravine the plastic sleds can pick up some considerable speed. If the operator is out of control and slams into someone then it's a problem. On most other trails, like Osceola I can't see how anyone could get up to that level of speed without colliding with a tree at the first turn. In which case it might still make the Accidents notes section but for a different reason than just mentioned.

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I make a distinction between glissading and sledding. I do the latter, and the sled I use has a flat bottom. Glissading seems to wipe snow away much more so than the sled, so I would argue the sled leaves the trail in better shape. The idea of going so fast you have no control is laughable to me. It is actually a great workout to stay on the track and keep sledding, otherwise you stop almost instantly, and are forced to crawl out of deep snow. It's a skill that requires practice - I recommend people try it. The sled can also be a multi use tool, as a seat on the snow and to help in case of a rescue. Plus, if it is a bright color, it could help with S&R. Most importantly, it is fun!

Sledding the steeps on East Osceola wouldn't be on my list unless the snow was great, but the upper and lower stretches would be great. A good beginner sled for those interested is the Starr King Trail (the hardwood section). If anyone wants to try it out shoot me a PM. I have extras.

I always find these types of augments to be somewhat amusing. In over 35 year's of year round hiking, no single activity or method of hiking has ever interfered with my hiking. Sledding, postholing, skiing, big snowshoes, small snowshoes, dogs, cats, goats (yes, goats). I just meander my way by, adapting to whatever conditions present themselves. The woods are a place to let loose and have fun, choose your method and wave to me and my dog when we pass. I won't tell you what or how to hike and I expect the same in return.

rocket21 said:

Most people's posteriors are shaped differently than the bottom of their snowshoes, so the resulting frozen track can take on a shape resembling a narrow half pipe that can be difficult to maneuver for subsequent hikers.

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Well, I hope flat butted people who glissade win some compliments for making it easier

sierra said:

I always find these types of augments to be somewhat amusing. In over 35 year's of year round hiking, no single activity or method of hiking has ever interfered with my hiking. Sledding, postholing, skiing, big snowshoes, small snowshoes, dogs, cats, goats (yes, goats). I just meander my way by, adapting to whatever conditions present themselves. The woods are a place to let loose and have fun, choose your method and wave to me and my dog when we pass. I won't tell you what or how to hike and I expect the same in return.

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I agree. I mostly bushwhack anyway, so I never see most of this.

But most importantly, I think we need more goats out there. Goats are great: smart; funny; resilient.

I butt surf/glissade as needed for both safety reasons and for the sheer enjoyment of it! I can never please everyone so any negative comments [rare] pertaining to this I just ignore. Yeah, I've gone up steep slopes where people were obviously glissading and it's made going up more difficult but I take it all in stride.

If I intend to glissade, I make sure nobody is going up the slope or at the end of the run. If there would be any required protocol with glissading, I think this would be important for safety reasons. There has been a few times where I did know there is actually someone going up so I immediately stop and let them know in advance I was sliding down.

TCD said:

But most importantly, I think we need more goats out there. Goats are great: smart; funny; resilient.

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Love the goats. But the white fluffy kind with the super sharp black horns are one of three animals that have forced me to stop and detour, the others being rattlesnakes and the moose in my avatar.

Have to say that anger is about the only emotion I've never felt on a hike... that's why I do it.

I was thinking about this today while hiking. The Avalon Tr and A-Z Tr were smoothed right out from sledders/butt sledders. Some spots were wiped down to the ice and I know it would be crazy if frozen solid but over all it was a very smooth and fast walking ramp. I prefer to stay on my feet so I don't slide. As long as everyone yields to people below them we should all be able to get along.

bcskier said:

It's a non-issue until it makes the Accidents notes in Appalachia.

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Out of curiosity, does anyone know of even a single accident involving a sled? (barring the usual spring hijinks in the Tuckerman bowl) Sitting glissades, especially with crampons, have led to some serious injuries.

bcskier said:

Out of curiosity, does anyone know of even a single accident involving a sled?

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A man was killed on Wildcat sledding down after hiking to the summit. http://www.wmur.com/article/18-year...sledding-accident-on-wildcat-mountain/5178602

David Metsky said:

A man was killed on Wildcat sledding down after hiking to the summit. http://www.wmur.com/article/18-year...sledding-accident-on-wildcat-mountain/5178602

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Nighttime, sledding down an unlighted, groomed downhill ski trail.

My suggestion would be to reword the question "Out of curiosity, does anyone know of even a single accident involving a sled, where another person was injured by the sledder?

Like many other sports folks are willing and able to make personal decisions to do activities that are potentially fatal. The individual on Wildcat made a questionable decision to go sledding and he paid the consequences. His partners didn't run onto a tree and lived to deal with the aftermath. Folks make similar decisions to go skiing and occasionally every year some folks ski off the trail and hit a tree and get seriously injured or die. Of far greater interest is have there been any documented accidents where someone sliding down a hiking trail with or without a sled has caused someone else to be injured or killed? I know I have had near incidents twice on the Mt Tecumseh trail where skiers have been skiing down the hiking trail and have yelled at the last minute that I had to get out of the trail as they couldn't stop. It was an annoyance as I had to jump off the trail into trees but I was not injured just annoyed. Conceivably someone hiking could get hurt as someone sliding does have a bit more kinetic energy than a standard hiker coming downhill but I really cant recall any accidents that are trail related where a sledder actually hit and injured someone. On the other hand there are occasional accidents of skiers hitting others at Tucks and apparently fairly frequent occasions at ski resorts.

With respect to the sledders creating icy trails, I expect recent weather conditions are far more likely the culprit then sledding. Although a well groomed snowshoe track is thing of beauty, it is inherently transient. As the temps go from day to night the trails edges will widen out and the corners will fill in with snow. Add in a few rain events and they will tend to form a chute.

There was one low snow winter where many VFTT folks seemed to get the sliding bug. I seem to remember several folks bruising or breaking tailbones that winter out of their decision to butt slide and not to use sleds. My swissbob has a few deep gouges on the bottom that imply that I have run over a very rough rock or frozen root, it has an air gap between the seat and the bottom of the sled so no harm to me but expect it saved me from the pain of broken or bruised tailbone.

Yes, I can confirm a hyper-extended knee being taken out by a sledder on North Hancock. If I couldn't gathered myself in time and caught up to him, I would be able to confirm another injury to the sledder himself.