conditioning - running - what is good time??

Hey there,

If there are any runners in the group - wondering if they can help.

I have been running on and off since I started running in the army way back in 1991. I pretty much run becuase I like it and it helps me on the trails. I have shower at work so its easy to get out at lunch and blow off steram for an hour. Typically 4 days a week. (6 miles, 4 miles, 6 miles, 4 miles) - sometimes throw a 7 or 8 miler in there.

I pretty much always ran 10-15 miles per week and then last year stepped it up to about 20.. I know this isn't alot to people who do marathons, etc....

Now - until recently I never timed myself or anything - becuase I didn't care, I ran to enjoy it, etc... Becuase of an upcoming trip, I am getting a bit more seroius about times, training, etc...

I always hear that the 7 minute mile is average and I can hold that pace for the first couple of miles. But lets use today as an example - I ran 7.2 miles in 60 minutes - thats about 8.2 minutes mile as an average. Is this considered a decent time?? Am I better going longer at slower time to do more distance - or trying to trim down the time. My main concern is endurance.

thanks all!!

giggy said:

But lets use today as an example - I ran 7.2 miles in 60 minutes - thats about 8.2 minutes mile as an average. Is this considered a decent time??
thanks all!!

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I would certainly be pleased with that time.

As you continue training, your endurance builds. Varying workouts also helps a lot.

I'm an old man and therefore it takes me at least an hour to cover 10 miles. But then again, my arthritic knee does slow me down some.

Really, I love to run for the legal high and the ensuing easier hiking. 9 minute miles are the rule in my case. Whenever I go faster I develop some stupid injury.

If your not training for any specific races or anything I would say that your pace is fine. If you're looking for endurance i would just run for a longer time and not worry about going faster. That said, if you feel good on a particular day don't be afraid to pick it up.

My experience has been that the more miles or time I run the better my endurance. When I used to run for my college team I did a lot of faster runs and workouts, but didn't do as much mileage as I do now. I was faster in shorter races (5k and under), but probably couldn't run a fast half marathon.

I would just go out and run and not worry about pace if I were you.

I wouldn't get too fixated on "times." Throwing in plenty of hilly courses will serve you much better in prepping for the Whites. I run 3 days or so a week but always the same course and its all flat. 6, 8 or 10 milers (on occasion). Then I die when I hike in the Whites. Not so much cardio wise but my legs just tire very easily.

I work on a beautiful military installation with virtually no traffic and am just too lazy to go off the post in search of hills. Plus my running partners are here on base .

My main point is...time is not as important as the type of course you choose.

I'm also a runner. 8.2 minutes a mile is very good IMO, but of course, it's all relative. The important thing is that you're just getting out there and running. However, if you're really curious, you might want to consider running a 5K race and comparing your times to others. If you've never run a race before, it's a blast. Best of luck.

Since you are prepping for an upcoming hiking trip and not a running race, you don't really need to worry about how fast you can run a given set of miles.

Instead, your question could be: "What is the best way to optimize my running workouts to help my ability to hike well for the upcoming trip?" As you mentioned, endurance is a priority. In addition, strength is important for climbing and descending well. Minimal excess weight on one's body is also a good thing.

Long steady distance runs at a relatively easy pace will help endurance and fat burning. Hill intervals is one of the best ways to build strength. Be careful running downhill though--it pounds the body more than it benefits. It's better to run hard up the hill and walk down.

Whatever you do, keep the running fun. Mix it up. Don't ruin a good thing by turning it into a grind at this point in your life just because you have a big trip coming up.

Your times are good and will definately help you on the trails. I noticed that since I stopped running, I do not have the same endurance on the trails that I used to have.
Have fun!

Sport Specificity

I remember back when I first introduced my girlfriend to backpacking. At the time I viewed her as being very fit, and she was. She worked out quite a bit including jogging 3-4 times a week, bicycling to wearever she had to go and taking tai-kwon-do classes. So I figured hiking would'nt be much of a problem for her. Well, I was wrong. All I can say is I learned something about the special demands that hiking steep slopes with a load put on a body's cardio and muscular system. She was in a bit of distress for a good part of that first trip of our's. Luckily she (we) survived and we've been hiking together ever since. The point of the story is that our bodies respond to the "specific" demands we put on it, therefore if you want to get better at running long distances then run long distance, but do'nt expect that you'll necessarily be in better "hiking" condition. If running is all that you can do to train for hiking then may I suggest more hill work. Although you want to be careful on the downhills, studys have proven them to be an excellant way to train the quads for the eccentric muscle contractions that down hill hiking produces. OOps... I just realised I have no idea as to the nature of your trip, you may not even be carrying a pack or climbing steep trails...oh well, maybe some of what I had to share may be of some help to you.

BEUCS said:

The point of the story is that our bodies respond to the "specific" demands we put on it, therefore if you want to get better at running long distances then run long distance, but do'nt expect that you'll necessarily be in better "hiking" condition.

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The guide we had for Mnt. Baker mentioned the best training for mountaineering was carrying a backpack (i assume he meant hiking with one). On our trip this showed, the rope team of backpackers were the ones who summited

should have mentioned - running is one part of my program - hiking w/ pack weekly is another (not training really - do it anyway) (whites, monadnock, and local boston things) , as is running w/ pack up stadium steps and hills.

I am always "in shape" (subjective of course) as I hike/climb year round - just trying to step it up a notch for trip out west. I just never timed runs before and wasn't sure if 8 minutes was ok or crap.
thanks all

You're fine, but if you want to get technical...

You might want to keep a casual eye on your heart rate as a measure of how hard to push yourself, regardless of time. Most of us in our 30s can build up good endurance by keeping it in the 135-155 range for a good 30+ minutes (the longer the better). Since I am too darn cheap to buy a HR monitor and am not a running gearhead, I use this rule: If you can sing, you're not training hard enough. If you can say 5-10 word sentences, but not sing, just right. If you can't get a half sentence out at a time, you're working too hard. This gets it within about 5-8 beats most of the time. Many of us driven types work too hard, with a result of not being able to keep the pace up long enough, having to stop to divest one's self of breakfast, etc.
And hills are great. And hills with weight are even better.

Giggy, your time is good for only running 20 miles per week, if you run longer (say 30 - 35 miles per week)distance you will gain more endurance and if you supplement one of your 4 mile runs as a speed workout of a 1 mile warm up and run 1/2 intervals on a track at a 3 minute pace (with a 1/4 walk between each one times 4) and a 1 mile warm down. After 8 weeks you should be able to average close to a 7 minute mile. If that is your goal.

Okay... here's my two cents. I'm a High School track coach. The kids I train average about 7.5 minute miles in training runs from 4 to 10 miles. They do about 30-40 miles per week, though. 8.2 minute miles is okay, though. I like what halite and weatherman have advised you above.

Running is a good part of your training program because cardiovascular fitness is critical in hiking. I find that when I'm in decent running shape, I can sustain a higher heart rate when hiking on the trail.

But there really is no substitute for the specificity of walking up a steep hill with a pack on. Basically, running will keep your heart and lungs in shape for the trail, but it won't develop enough leg strength to support the added weight of a pack, boots, steeper grades, etc...

And the converse..

I don't run, usually. I hike at a reasonabley fast pace. In the Whites, I will do 50-60% of book time, even with a fairly heavy pack.

In spite of this, it does not help my running. Once a year, I run a 10K race. I do about 8 minute miles. OK, so I only run twice in the week before the race, but the point I want to make here is that, just as those say that running is not really a substitute for hiking, I'm saying that the converse is also true.

And yes, I know that if I wanted to improve my running, I would do more than running 3 times a year.

8.2 minutes is a good pace for sure. I have been running for about 7 years now, and I have never been able to crack the 7 minutes/mile pace. I run 20-30 miles a week and I usually run at just under an 8 min/mile pace. Sometimes faster, sometimes slower, but right around there. In a race situtation, that drops to below 7:30's. The fastest pace I have ever had was 7:10's in a 10K.

If increasing your speed is important, you can do speed workouts. I did them for a while, and they work, but you have to be willing to put yourself in a lot of pain. Basically, start by running a mile slowly for a warm up. Then, make sure you are on a fairly flat piece of road. For the next two miles, alternate sprinting and jogging with every telephone pole. And I mean SPRINT, full out. Do this for two miles (I told you this was hard). Then, end your run with a mile cool down, again at a very slow pace.

If you do this once a week for just a month, you will notice a difference. You can do it twice a week, but I wouldn't do speed workouts any more than that.

I'm a long time runner and marathoner. I now see a decline in my times as the years go by (I'm in my 60s) which I reluctantly accept, but the process of training is the same as ever. Several points that I would mention:

1) most of your training should be slower than race pace. I'm training for a marathon (in 3 weeks) with a goal of 3:50 (about 8:45 pace). My training pace is about a minute slower.
2) speed work (once a week for us non-elites) should be faster than race pace. Speed work for my marathon would be half mile or mile repeats of 30 sec to a minute faster than race pace. For marathon training you want longer intervals. For a 10 K you would probably do 200s or 400s.
3) Endurace: there's nothing that will beat the value of milage, especially your weekly long run. For any thing other than a marathon, the long run should be longer than your race (say 10 miles for a 10k race). For a marathon I top out at 20 mile long runs. Some do longer.
4) hard-easy. Alternate easy workout days with hard. For me it's more like hard-easy-easy. Take days off. Improvement actually occurs on your rest days or easy days when you recover from hard days and the muscles get stronger. The stress-recover cycle will improve your fitness only if you allow time for the recovery phase.
5) Don't try to emulate what elite athletes do. They are a different species from us humans.

Note that none of my training is at (marathon) race pace. Most is slower, and only the speed work is faster. The marathon pace is a 'no-go" zone which you save for the big day.

Now for running vs. hiking. I tend to have a running season in the Winter (ending with a Spring marathon) and a hiking season in the Summer and Fall. Whoever said that to hike better you must hike was right. But certainly the fiteness you get from running helps a lot. I find the transition from running to hiking is easy. From hiking to running is hard and I'm sore for a month. Youy tend to bulk up when you're in hiking shape, and you have to get rid of your muscle-boundedness to get back into running.

Last point" this is just me. Your milage will vary. And remember to have fun.

Times

Unless you are training for the Olympics or are into racing I would not get so hung up on time. My obsession with time made me grow to hate running and become lazy. I have recently got back into running to help my endurance for hiking. As a rule if I use a watch I do not want to know the mileage and if I know the mileage I do not wear a watch.
Pete is correct...hiking helps hiking and running helps running. However most of us are lucky if we can hike once a week and if we get other cardio excercise in we will be a little better off when we hike. Last fall I noticed that I hiked with less heavy breathing on the weeks were I got some excercise in between hikes.
The best thing to do besides hike is to get the number of minutes and hours you excercise up. Running 45 minutes really is no comparison for hiking uphill for 7 hours. I try to get long workouts in, whether they are hiking in local park (Middlesex Fells) or doing a 2-3 hour walk at a 12-14 minute mile pace. Most of my runs are in the 3-5 mile range at a little better than 9 minutes/mile.

I don't know if someone alreeady mentioned it on this thread, but there was fellow a few years ago that advocated tracking how much exercise you got in terms of vertical feet, rather than miles of distance. So if your local backyard mountain has a trail with 1000 feet of climbing, and you do it three nights a week, you'd be getting 3000 feet per week. If you climb Mt. Washington from Pinkham (4200') 3X per week, you're getting 12,600' / wk.

When I read this (I can't remember where), I liked the idea. Somewhere around 5000' / wk for a couple months would probably put you in pretty good shape. You could modulate the effort via pack weight. I like carrying water uphill, because you can dump it out at the top and not strain your knees carrying it back down.

'Races' as training

I use races as training but am unconcerned about time. They are in a variety of places, which is great! They provide "aide stations" so you don't have to carry so much. And the people are pretty nice...talking about trail and mountain races...road racers can get pretty "intence" @ times

Check out these links http://www.runwmac.com/gt2005/gt05-races.html and http://www.usatfne.org/trail

Specifity of training is the best...and cross training is great to

If you want to run fast uphill, some of your training should be hill intervals, etc.

I like the marathon and ultra trail "races" best. Easy running and walking, eating and drinking for hours

I think your pace is fine...depends on what YOU want out of it...but as others have said...have FUN doing whatever you do. Good luck!