Old ADK 46er looking to try the White Mountains

Looking to hike the White mountains for the first time. Still have some chops at 63 but between me and my hiking partner, I may have a range limit of ten miles and 3000 - 4000 elevation gain/loss. The Franconia Ridge loop hike seems to be doable, but one never knows. For all you folks who have experienced the Dacks and this hike, can you tell me what this hike would equate to in the ADK 46? Thank you.

I don't have much experience in the 46ers. I'm a lifelong Whites hiker who has been heading to NY of late to see different mountains. From what I have seen of the Adirondacks to this point I think you will be pleasantly surprised with the Whites. The approaches to most 4k peaks are much shorter than the Adirondacks and the up and down between summits is not as dramatic as NY. Trail roughness (roots, rocks, ledge) seems to be comparable from what I have seen of NY so far. I haven't personally done a hike yet in NY that I would consider comparable so I can't really provide a comparison.

The Franconia Loop is about 9.8 miles and would fall into your 3,000-4,000 vertical requirement. It has a few steep areas but is generally a fairly comfortable hike for even inexperienced hikers and the views are incredible. It is a very sharp, exposed ridge though so weather can be a big factor. Not sure what time frame you are planning on doing the hike. If you are still in reasonable hiking shape I don't think you would have to much trouble with this one.

An Adirondack day hike that shares some of the prime characteristics of the Franconia Ridge loop, Silverback - initial long uphill climb with similar vertical and length with a few downs/ups along the way - would be an out and back from the Rt 73 trailhead (near Chapel Pond) to Giant and Rocky Peak Ridge summit.

The huge difference between these two is the continuous, above-treeline exposure that Francoinia Ridge presents; nothing like it in the Adriondacks.

Nice thing with the Franconia Loop is Greenleaf Hut. If you go clockwise (my preferred direction), you can start out with a couple of near empty water bottles and tank up at the Hut (note the water is safe but at some times of the year they dose it pretty heavily with some sort of treatment and its got a decidedly distinct taste). It makes a nice morning break point and they usually have snacks for sale. One thing to keep in mind is the Falling Waters trail tends to hold in the snow between Haystack and Shining Rock late into the spring and some years the "monorail" (rounded lump of frozen snow surrounded by deep rotten snow) can really be difficult.

As noted the ridge is really exposed once you are on it there is no good option to bail until Falling Waters trail. The Lafayette summit has full exposure to the wind and a valley NW of the summit tends to channel west and NW winds right at it.

By the way, this trail is mobbed every weekend and even during the week. I don't know what the crowds are like in the ADKs but expect little privacy if you hike during peak hours. I strongly urge you to stay locally and get an early morning start, the earlier the better. I usually shoot for 7 AM and usually get a parking space right at the trailhead It will be cool for the 1/2 mile but will soon warm up. If you shoot for the Lafayette summit before 11, its usually fairly empty. Of course the trade off for an early start is you get to dodge all the late day folks heading down.

Thank you all. The Giant/Rocky comparison makes for a good measuring stick as well. As for me, I can still do the day hike out to Haystack (that would be the one in the Great Range) and back (not all that easily as i once could though), but I'm not sure about my hiking partner. My plan would be to hike in mid-June

Some more questions:

1. Would it be easier to Do the Greenleaf trail just to Lafayette (and maybe on to Lincoln) and then back the same way? I get the impression that, once on the ridge, it isn't too tough, but the down via Falling Waters could be tougher that just backtracking (which would also allow for a second rest visit at the hut).

2. Are the blackflies as bad as the Dacks?

3. Any recommendations for places close by to stay? I'm afraid my camping days are over.

4. Any other similar (or less strenuous) mountain hikes that you would suggest?

Thank again.

63 myself, don't think Lincoln and Lafayette are too tough for you. I do think it's a tougher hike than Giant/RPR from Rte. 73. I would compare it more to Dial and Nippletop. However the biggest problem you will face is stopping all the time to look around. Also you could hit a lot of bugs in mid-June, unless there's a good wind black flies could be annoying.

Edit: About how hard this is, I was thinking more of the entire ridge instead of just Lincoln and Lafayette. If just those two, then yes, Giant/RPR is a good comparison.

My wife and I are adding Flume and Liberty in our hike later this summer. We prefer a counterclockwise direction, we like stopping at the hut after most of the work is done.

Silverback said:

Some more questions:

1. Would it be easier to Do the Greenleaf trail just to Lafayette (and maybe on to Lincoln) and then back the same way? I get the impression that, once on the ridge, it isn't too tough, but the down via Falling Waters could be tougher that just backtracking (which would also allow for a second rest visit at the hut).

2. Are the blackflies as bad as the Dacks?

3. Any recommendations for places close by to stay? I'm afraid my camping days are over.

4. Any other similar (or less strenuous) mountain hikes that you would suggest?

Thank again.

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1. You could but I doubt you'll want to backtrack.
2. Black flies can be perilous.
3. Plenty of hotels in Franconia Notch and nearby Lincoln. We tend to stay at Parker's Motel (http://parkersmotel.com/) because it is decent, cheap, and closest to Franconia trailheads.
4. Many, many options, including some non-4000-footer options. We keep returning to Moosilauke because it has a great payoff for comparatively little effort.

Silverback said:

1. Would it be easier to Do the Greenleaf trail just to Lafayette (and maybe on to Lincoln) and then back the same way? I get the impression that, once on the ridge, it isn't too tough, but the down via Falling Waters could be tougher that just backtracking (which would also allow for a second rest visit at the hut).

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The ridge heading up to Greenleaf Hut on the Old Bridle Path has a section known as "The Agonies". There are some pretty steep, relentless areas going up this way, with several really nice outlooks to offset the effort. I personally much prefer ascending Falling Waters, which while a fairly comfortable stretch, has a lot of wet rock and some river crossings with several nice water falls. Skipping this part of the hike would take away some of the attractiveness of this loop.

Descending either way is not overly demanding and I don't know that you're saving anything by doing an out-and-back in either direction. Re-climbing Lafayette to head back down that way will probably seem worse for your partner if they're tired. Most people in Summer go up Falling Waters and down Old Bridle Path. Breaks up some of the overall vertical as opposed to tackling it all at once heading straight up to Lafayette. On the other hand, if you get all the vertical out of the way early doing Lafayette first it's mostly downhill the rest of the day. You're usually with the prevailing wind doing it that way too. If you plan to involve the Hut at all in your water carrying plans as mentioned by peakbagger I guess that would be the other deciding factor. It's a short enough hike that carrying a sufficient amount of water is usually not a big deal.

I don't think you can go wrong in either direction and I wouldn't be worried about descending in either direction. Both ways will have short sections requiring care but are not "hard core" by any stretch. Just be a question of what your preferences are for how much of the vertical you want to bite off first

Standard route which is much easier logistically is Old Bridal Path up and Falling Waters down due to no car spot. The Greenleaf trailhead is a couple of miles up the road so it means walking the bike path. OBP is definitely not worth skipping as there is low ridge you encounter in the morning with lots of view points of the ridge. Greenleaf does go by a nice cliff but most of the time it in the softwoods. Nice on hot day but definitely second rate.

The Agonies were named by the hut crews that haul 100 pounds plus in a backpack to supply the hut. They are steep but if you aren't in rush and its dry, not an issue for a standard hiker.

I use hiking poles and it makes for easier but possibly slower downhills so I don't mind descending Falling Waters. The sun takes awhile to get over the ridge to light up the various water falls so I much prefer encountering them later in the day where the lighting is better and my interest in taking my time and enjoying them is higher. I find most folks heading up FWT tend to rush by them. The morning coolness takes longer to dissipate along this trail.

Plenty of hotels just down the road in Lincoln, if you want a hostel experience, these folks have good rep http://notchhostel.com/. Note they service the AT thru hiker community so its may not be the level of service you want but a nice way to meetup with some through hikers (who would love a ride to town).

peakbagger said:

Plenty of hotels just down the road in Lincoln, if you want a hostel experience, these folks have good rep http://notchhostel.com/. Note they service the AT thry hiker community so its may not be the level of service you want but a nice way to meetup with some through hikers (who would love a ride to town).

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Justin and Serena are fantastic and the hostel is perfectly welcoming to day hikers. Clean and well kept, no funkiness. They've done an excellent job of integrating into the local mountain community, both personally and business-wise. The living room at Notch is starting to rival Mountain Wanderer as a way to bump into hikers of note; obviously you're going to see more true locals at the latter.

Note they're closed for mud season until the 19th.

The Franconia Ridge Loop is probably "the hike" in New Hampshire and on a nice weekend day, Lafayette will see in the neighborhood of 1,000 visitors. Probably some 750 of these people hike far less often than you do - for some, this may be their only hike this year, or this decade, or ever. I imagine that on poor weather days during shoulder season, there are opportunities to be the only person up there. I don't think I have ever seen the parking lot empty any time I've driven past.

Personally, I prefer going up Falling Waters and Down Old Bridle Path.

Just in case you want to whet your appetite,

Summer Lincoln & Lafayette Trip with Gryffin (and a reported 976 visitors to Lafayette)
Winter Full Traverse, including Liberty and Flume

Tim

I would recommend going up Falling Waters and descending the Old Bridle path. This eliminates a walk back to your car, if you took the Greenleaf trail. This direction, also allows you a good rest at the Hut to re water and have some snacks before descending Old Bridle path, which in my opinion is not that bad. This loop would be as easy as going to Lincoln and back as you suggested. I do the loop in under 6 hours and I'm not that fast. Easier but still nice hikes, Pierce and Ike, Monroe and back from Ammou Ravine ( possible to link in Washington). Garfield out and back(10 easy miles)

peakbagger said:

descending Falling Waters. The sun takes awhile to get over the ridge to light up the various water falls so I much prefer encountering them later in the day where the lighting is better and my interest in taking my time and enjoying them is higher.

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Hadn't really thought of that before. And I suppose at the same time ascending OBP and seeing the morning sky over the ridge from all the outlooks makes the climb more bearable. I think next time I do the loop I just might try that. I do kind of hate the long boring cruise out on the lower part of OBP at the end of the day.

1. Would it be easier to Do the Greenleaf trail just to Lafayette (and maybe on to Lincoln) and then back the same way? I get the impression that, once on the ridge, it isn't too tough, but the down via Falling Waters could be tougher that just backtracking (which would also allow for a second rest visit at the hut).

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This idea would make the hike much shorter, and miss almost all the good parts. As others have noted, the standard loop is over Old Bridle Path and Falling Waters trails. Greenleaf is an OK trail, not difficult, but nothing special (and annoyingly long at the bottom - the trailhead was moved when the highway was built). You would get good views once you're above the hut, but to get your money's worth from this hike you really need to explore the ridge, which means continuing south at least to Mt Lincoln, and preferably to Little Haystack.

Once on LIttle Haystack, going back over Lincoln and Lafayette is much more effort than heading down Falling Waters. FW is a more direct climb than Greenleaf or OBP, but it's not difficult enough to avoid, even for descent, barring unusual ice or flooding. Backtracking the ridge will be very tempting if you're feeling strong and have plenty of daylight, but you asked what was easier.

As noted by others, the standard loop is OBP-FW, and I, like Tim, prefer to start with FW. This way the steeper trail is climbed, not descended, and the cooling falls are encountered during the effort of climbing. On OBP there are ledges where you can look and see where you've been, nice place to linger near the end of the day. But you can do the loop in either direction, no problem. Note that FW trail crosses the stream repeatedly, so you can start with empty water bottles on that trail too.

2. Are the blackflies as bad as the Dacks?

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Highly dependent on date and weather. I have limited experience of the Daks, but I think the Daks are a bit worse on average.

4. Any other similar (or less strenuous) mountain hikes that you would suggest?

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If you're going to the effort of traveling, this is *the* classic loop hike. You can get more views for more effort (Presidentials, Bonds), and there are some real gems of smaller peaks (Baldfaces, welch-dickey, monadnock, Cardigan, Chocorua) , but this one is a great balance of accessibility, views, and effort. I'd also mention Moosilauke - lots of loop options and plenty of above-treeline area there.

By the way, both FW and OBP are pretty well paved with rocks due to the popularity. The maintenance has suffered over recent years but there rarely are any mud pits and the roots are pretty well pruned back. FW trail even has some sections of switchbacks between the falls and Shining Rock. After that from Shining Rock its straight up paved with rocks and boulders. OBP has switchbacks up the view but once it hits the ridge crest its pretty much right on top of the ridge. The Agonies section of OBP has a couple of short sections of steep eroded ledge that reminded me of my very limited ADK experience. There is plenty of texture to the rocks in these sections so unless its wet they really aren't that bad footing. To me the worst footing is the upper falls area of FW trail. Some prefer to climb it I prefer to descend it.

Note I do the loop both ways and have so for 20 plus years, I gravitated to up OBP and down FW but it may be related to the person who took me up it the first time who went up OPP. In general flip a coin and if its nice day you cant go wrong on the loop unless you get a late start.

peakbagger said:

Some prefer to climb it I prefer to ascend it.

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I'd rather go up it.

Yep, most of the Whites are granite with a coarse texture that stays grippy even when wet. There's an exception near the viewing ledges on Old Bridle Path: there's a brown rock there that forms a very fine dust and is worn very smooth by foot traffic. A bit slippy even when dry, treacherous when wet. Plenty of solid hand & foot holds but don't trust your feet on the sloping slabs. Two very short sections, you'll know them when you see them.

Great stuff folks! Thanks to everyone for taking the time to make such thorough and informative replies.

I also do the loop both ways. If it's peak summer, I always go clockwise, so I can cool off in the brooks on the way down FW. I love cooling off on descents and it dictates my route selection a lot. Like the Tri's, up PB, down SBT.

"Try not! Do or do not do! There is no try"

I don't think the bugs are as bad in NH as ADKs

Not as much mud either

The ridge walk is similar to Algonquin and Iroquois IMO Only a couple of hundred feet drop between the peaks, unlike GOTV and RPR.

Getting up is a good climb but not like getting up Algonquin. Most of the rock offers good footing although the Agonies also have some slippery rock in a couple of spots.

The climb up would somewhere between Giant by the Ridge trail and maybe Big Slide by the Brothers if you ascend Lafayette by OBP as both offer great views along the way,