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Thread: drones

  1. #31
    Senior Member TJsName's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jrbren View Post
    Despite some of the beautiful footage I see from drones on U-Tube, I fully support banning their use in Wilderness area. I disagree that one cannot expect a certain level of privacy just because the land is publicly owned. I'ld be lying if I said it would not be fun to create my own wilderness videos like this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sTy0TNEBlNg, but not at the cost of destroying the wilderness feeling for others. 1 or 2 drones a day passing by would not bother me, but no one rain drop is responsible for the flood. 1 drone hovering over head would annoy the p1ss out of me. I would liken that to me going to the edge of someone's campsite and just staring at them for an hour (hey, its public land, they should not expect any privacy?). I do not think it's illegal, but incredibly bad form. I have never been successful asking anyone to turn their music down, I have no reason to believe "talking to the owner" would get other response then "f-off, I can do what I want, free country". I do not believe the owner would not already be aware of what they are doing and what the impact to others is.
    While people should be respectful and mindful, we all have blind spots and make mistakes. Without feedback from others, we're likely to repeat those errors. Many people are receptive to reasonable feedback. Attempting to shoot down a drone or accusing it's operator of something nefarious is not likely to be well received, but a simple request may be. Refusing to attempt to communicate due to your assumption that won't work is any easy trap to fall into, I know. It's really hard to overcome our own biases and experience, but without a dialogue you can be sure nothing will change. Without that effort, one creates a self-fulfilling prophecy: I don't believe anything will change, so I won't do anything, therefore nothing changes. Sure, doing something might only work 10% of the time, but doing nothing has a much lower success rate.

    I think there is a distinction between 'an expectation of privacy' and 'expecting a certain level of privacy'. I take the prior to be more absolute, while the latter I take to be more of a statistical thing. On a main trail to a major peak on a summer weekend, I'd expect far less than I would in the woods, off trail, mid week in spring. I expect less privacy peeing above treeline than I do in the woods. I expect less privacy at a shelter than a stealth site. These expectations are driven by the odds of running into other people, not by my understanding/interpretations of the law.

    Perhaps what you're getting at is more about social norms? Yes, someone could come set up a tent right next to yours and it would be legal, but it's a violation of social norms - the unwritten rules. It would be like someone moving your jacket from a seat you've claimed. It's not illegal, but it's interpreted as a violation of one's space, even if that seat were in a public park. It makes one uncomfortable/upset to feel as though someone else isn't playing by the rules. The problem is the rules aren't well defined and are subject to interpretation. In the case of drones, given their newness, we try to apply existing rules to them (e.g. 'don't watch someone while their going to the bathroom'), but it's not an easy fit.

    Again, I think this is a good conversation to have, especially as many of us are likely to all run into this kind of situation at some point.
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  2. #32
    Senior Member Tim Horn's Avatar
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    Hunting in season is allowed in the National Forest. Easy to mistake a flying object for a grouse or a duck or a turkey or a drone that is in season. I mean.....

  3. #33
    Senior Member TCD's Avatar
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    ^^^This^^^

    "Thought it was a grouse."

    Done.

  4. #34
    Senior Member TJsName's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tim Horn View Post
    Hunting in season is allowed in the National Forest. Easy to mistake a flying object for a grouse or a duck or a turkey or a drone that is in season. I mean.....
    I don't get to quote the NRA very often.

    "Know your target and what is beyond.

    Be absolutely sure you have identified your target beyond any doubt. Equally important, be aware of the area beyond your target. This means observing your prospective area of fire before you shoot. Never fire in a direction in which there are people or any other potential for mishap. Think first. Shoot second."
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  5. #35
    Senior Member ExploreTheEast's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jrbren View Post
    I fully support banning their use in Wilderness area.
    I support this as well. Drones have no place in a designated Wilderness area. I'm pretty sure they're already banned there, and hopefully that remains!

    Sierra, you're not going to find me knitpicking about the lines of what destroys nature and what doesn't. Planes flying overhead? Not a big deal to me. Chainsaws to clear a trail? Sounds like the most humane solution to clear it! My very footprints leave more of a negative impact than some drone noise that is 100% LNT. Thankfully, I haven't seen a boombox in the wilderness (or anywhere else, haha) since the 90's, but I do regularly see people playing their iphone music through a bluetooth speaker as they are hiking, and as I said above, I believe that's just their way of experiencing wilderness. They need a soundtrack for nature. To each her own, I can't judge them. I'm glad their out there, period. Same with the dogs and the horses and the mountain bikers and the people on their cellphones.

    Regarding shooting down a drone, hey, if you've got the skill and don't care about committing a federal crime, more power to you! In fact, 20 years ago when I was a young dumbass, I probably would have done this, just for fun! These days I'm a bit more of a law-abiding citizen (except for speed limits, which I do try to break at least once a day). But you won't catch me getting all "Live Free or Die" anymore, my outlaw days are behind me. On the positive side to getting your drone shot down, most of us that are serious drone pilots have a million dollars in insurance coverage anyway, so if you shoot one down, you basically get us a free upgrade!

  6. #36
    Senior Member jrbren's Avatar
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    TJsName - I agree it is not a short discussion and can be interesting, you make several good points. I would not approach a stranger asking them to fly their drone someplace else, I just do not see a good outcome to that discussion.

    ExploreTheEast - I am too much of a wimp to shoot at drones, I would be afraid they have or will invent one (for commercial use, I know they already exist in the military) that has deflector shields and can shoot back !

    To date, I have never had a real issue with drones, likely because they are banned in wilderness areas that I go to. It takes little imagination though to see how they could quickly become a real intrusion to wilderness.

    Aside : I can say airplane noise does bother me from time to time at the Wachusett Reservoir, I think there is a pilot school nearby, but I am not going to b1tch about it. Just something to put up with like traffic noise in any area near a busy road. Best to have well practiced pilots !

  7. #37
    Senior Member DougPaul's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ExploreTheEast View Post
    I support this as well. Drones have no place in a designated Wilderness area. I'm pretty sure they're already banned there, and hopefully that remains!
    Read my previous post: Drones can legally fly over designated wilderness, but cannot land, take off, or be flown from designated wilderness. (I wish they were banned, but that appears to be the law.)

    Sierra, you're not going to find me knitpicking about the lines of what destroys nature and what doesn't. Planes flying overhead? Not a big deal to me. Chainsaws to clear a trail? Sounds like the most humane solution to clear it! My very footprints leave more of a negative impact than some drone noise that is 100% LNT.
    Just because the noise doesn't bother you doesn't mean it doesn't bother other humans or animals.

    I have watched a loon making an alarm display when an aircraft flew over its pond. (The aircraft was probably at least 1000 ft AGL.) Loons have not fledged chicks on that pond in a number of years because of human disturbance. (A number of humans visit the pond and pond area by ground routes in addition to the aircraft disturbance.)

    Sightseeing flights have been banned over parts of the Grand Canyon because the noise annoyed humans.

    Doug

  8. #38
    Senior Member sierra's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ExploreTheEast View Post
    I support this as well. Drones have no place in a designated Wilderness area. I'm pretty sure they're already banned there, and hopefully that remains!

    Sierra, you're not going to find me knitpicking about the lines of what destroys nature and what doesn't. Planes flying overhead? Not a big deal to me. Chainsaws to clear a trail? Sounds like the most humane solution to clear it! My very footprints leave more of a negative impact than some drone noise that is 100% LNT. Thankfully, I haven't seen a boombox in the wilderness (or anywhere else, haha) since the 90's, but I do regularly see people playing their iphone music through a bluetooth speaker as they are hiking, and as I said above, I believe that's just their way of experiencing wilderness. They need a soundtrack for nature. To each her own, I can't judge them. I'm glad their out there, period. Same with the dogs and the horses and the mountain bikers and the people on their cellphones.

    Regarding shooting down a drone, hey, if you've got the skill and don't care about committing a federal crime, more power to you! In fact, 20 years ago when I was a young dumbass, I probably would have done this, just for fun! These days I'm a bit more of a law-abiding citizen (except for speed limits, which I do try to break at least once a day). But you won't catch me getting all "Live Free or Die" anymore, my outlaw days are behind me. On the positive side to getting your drone shot down, most of us that are serious drone pilots have a million dollars in insurance coverage anyway, so if you shoot one down, you basically get us a free upgrade!
    As with many aspects of life, it's all relative to our own perspective. While you may think your Drone noise is LNT, I do not. It's leaving a trace in my ears, when I have to hear it. On the other hand, leaving footprints to me is a non-issue. Footprints don't hurt the land imo, the land is to use. Planes flying over head is not a good comparison, they are not knowingly interfering with someone's wilderness experience. Look, I get it, you like drones, to each his own, I'm just saying from my perspective they are intrusive to other's in a direct way in the backcountry. If that doesn't bother you, then you will fly them. It's not like there out there really, so at this point, I'm not worried about it any way. Final note, my dog hates, motorcycles, bicycles, yard machines and I'll bet a million bucks drones. I double dog dare you, to land that near my Aussie.

  9. #39
    Senior Member iAmKrzys's Avatar
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    You can file a complaint to USAF if it's flights are too noisy over some national parks: https://www.nature.nps.gov/naturalso...s/chapter4.pdf

  10. #40
    Senior Member DougPaul's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by iAmKrzys View Post
    You can file a complaint to USAF if it's flights are too noisy over some national parks: https://www.nature.nps.gov/naturalso...s/chapter4.pdf
    When we in Grand Canyon (back in the 1960s) we commented to a Ranger that we had seen a military aircraft flying in the canyon and he asked us if we had noted the tail number. We hadn't but it was clear that they wanted to enforce the no-fly zone regulations.

    So if you can, get the tail number and report it to a Ranger. (Military flights are legal over the WMNF, so don't worry about it there.)

    Doug

  11. #41
    Senior Member DougPaul's Avatar
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  12. #42
    Senior Member iAmKrzys's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DougPaul View Post
    Maybe annoyed hikers will start bringing small predators on their hikes? Who knows, a forgotten art of falconry might get its Renaissance!

  13. #43
    Senior Member Vermonster's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by iAmKrzys View Post
    Maybe annoyed hikers will start bringing small predators on their hikes? Who knows, a forgotten art of falconry might get its Renaissance!
    Not far from the truth:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tKNN49idCUo

  14. #44
    Senior Member skiguy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tim Horn View Post
    Hunting in season is allowed in the National Forest. Easy to mistake a flying object for a grouse or a duck or a turkey or a drone that is in season. I mean.....
    Be careful what you ask for. A drone just might save your arse someday. http://www.businessinsider.com/new-f...-permission-12
    "I'm getting up and going to work everyday and I am stoked. That does not suck!"__Shane McConkey

  15. #45
    Senior Member iAmKrzys's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skiguy View Post
    Be careful what you ask for. A drone just might save your arse someday. http://www.businessinsider.com/new-f...-permission-12
    While I have recently argued for drone use in SAR missions (see http://www.vftt.org/forums/showthrea...l=1#post438815 ) I think a situation where a drone hovers over a hiker answering nature call is totally different. While there may be no hard evidence available as to what the operator saw and what his/her intentions were, a malicious act cannot be ruled out and remote location of the operator does not make the situation any easier.

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