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Thread: No, pet dogs are not allowed in Baxter State Park.

  1. #16
    Member thegibba's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ChrisB View Post
    Becca -- A typical example of a service dog that might accompany a hiker is a dog trained to detect low blood sugar in a diabetic.

    StinkyFeet -- Sue, what was the disability your dog addressed in your recent Baxter Trip? Or are you crowing about lying to staff to get Cole into the park? Please clarify.

    cb
    Stinkyfeet is not the person in question. She was merely quoting the person in question. I made this mistake at first read.

  2. #17
    Senior Member skiguy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nartreb View Post
    How do you believe that rangers distinguish between "service dogs" and "pets" when they see a dog arriving at the gate? Are you claiming they can make this determination without speaking to the dog's human companion?
    I'm sure that is not what is being implied. Although some simple Googling will show that people with Service Dogs have a broad range of rights covered by the Americans with Disabilities Act. The owner of a Service Dog merely has to state the dog is just that a "Service Dog". Any other inquiry into an owner of a Service Dog is against the law.
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  3. #18
    Senior Member sierra's Avatar
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    This thread has done me one favor. It has reminded me why, I don't go there. Uptight and over regulated to the point of nauseam.

  4. #19
    Senior Member DayTrip's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sierra View Post
    This thread has done me one favor. It has reminded me why, I don't go there. Uptight and over regulated to the point of nauseam.
    I didn't feel that way when I went for the first time last year and despite all the rules I didn't feel like I was being hassled at all. I thought the park staff was very friendly. I appreciate that there are places left in the country where a concerted effort is made to maintain the overall experience of the area without the pressures of budgeting, politics and the whims of the moment. Staying true to a mission statement made many years ago I find quite admirable actually. It takes more planning and isn't as carefree as NH but the experience is worth it in my opinion. Baxter had a decidedly different feel to it than anywhere else I've gone in NH or NY. I thought Baxter had a good balance of regulation versus personal enjoyment. If every single park was like this maybe I'd have different feelings.
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  5. #20
    Senior Member sierra's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DayTrip View Post
    I didn't feel that way when I went for the first time last year and despite all the rules I didn't feel like I was being hassled at all. I thought the park staff was very friendly. I appreciate that there are places left in the country where a concerted effort is made to maintain the overall experience of the area without the pressures of budgeting, politics and the whims of the moment. Staying true to a mission statement made many years ago I find quite admirable actually. It takes more planning and isn't as carefree as NH but the experience is worth it in my opinion. Baxter had a decidedly different feel to it than anywhere else I've gone in NH or NY. I thought Baxter had a good balance of regulation versus personal enjoyment. If every single park was like this maybe I'd have different feelings.
    I understand the premise and the mission to uphold that. I've been once and climbed what I wanted to climb. That being said, I prefer places less regulated. Maybe my taste for the park results in regulations from years gone by. I went to solo the peak in the winter years ago and was flatly denied access. That did it for me. It's no big deal, frankly I just don't need to go back. And I would never go without my dog.

  6. #21
    Senior Member ChrisB's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sierra View Post
    I understand the premise and the mission to uphold that. I've been once and climbed what I wanted to climb. That being said, I prefer places less regulated.
    Sierra,

    For me regulation is a double-edged sword: It can enhance and improve the outdoor experience. It can get in the way of my plans, goals and aspirations.

    In Baxter's case, I've come to appreciate their effort to provide a quality outdoor experience by firmly setting limits. The latest example is a permit system that tries to manage the increasing number (3,000+) of AT hikers and the impact they have on "regular" folks climbing Baxter Peak. Trail head parking limits are another example.

    On the other hand, I think park management has relaxed regulation of winter use significantly. Fat tire bikes are now OK on some trails and roads, No more mandatory gear inspection-ranger consultations, and rolling reservation system makes it easier to get in and do cool stuff. Technical climbing is a hell of a lot easier to than it used to be also.

    Present park management is allocating significant resources to trail work (Abol, Northern Peaks, Traveler Loop) and infrastructure projects (bridges, culverts, cabins) rather than letting the park revert to a "wild" condition as was previously the caae.

    Two unique facts about Baxter are:

    1. It gets NO funding from the State of Maine. It lives and dies according to the fees it collects and the management of its endowment.

    2. It prioritizes indigenous wildlife and flora ahead of human visitors when making short- and long-term management decisions.

    While I occasionally get aggravated over some administrivia the park imposes, I'm glad it's not the free-for-all I see in most other New England outdoor venues.

    Occasionally inconvenient, but always immensely rewarding; It's a trade off I gladly accept.

    cb

    NOTE: StinkyFeet - My sincere apologies if I misread your post containing quotes. My dumb!
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  7. #22
    Senior Member Mike P.'s Avatar
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    If you have the ability to go out west or abroad, it's great. If you are mostly bound to staying in the east, my experience is that there is Katahdin and there is every other peak. Mitchell and Clingman or Guyot have views because of cliffs or towers. Some of the regulation helps keep it special. There is plenty of local wildlife that might be impacted by a pet let loose OR impact your pet and campsite if that wildlife chases your pet back to you and your site.

    Daytrip mentioned that there seems to be a lot of vitriol regarding the topic. I've learned long ago to avoid dog discussions. Dogs are great, owners/partners are people and there are all kinds of people...........
    Have fun & be safe
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  8. #23
    Senior Member Grey J's Avatar
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    That's it! Day Trip's earlier post nailed it. The service dog was on a day off but he is still a service dog therefore he is allowed in the park. It makes perfect sense. Like the guy who meets another guy on the trail and wants to pet his dog. "Does your dog bite?" he asks. "No" the other man replies. When the first guy bends down to pet the dog, it bites his hand. "I thought you said your dog doesn't bite!" he exclaims resentfully. "My dog doesn't bite, but that's not my dog."
    Last edited by Grey J; 07-03-2017 at 05:17 PM. Reason: waiting too long to post, unclear precedent
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  9. #24
    Senior Member sierra's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Becca M View Post
    I still don't understand how the dog got in there - ? The person seemed to brag about getting the dog into the park which makes it look like there was some kind of fraud involved - ?
    I'm not sure where there is any confusion. As the OP said like 5 times, service dog's are allowed. Cole is a service dog.

  10. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by skiguy View Post
    I'm sure that is not what is being implied. Although some simple Googling will show that people with Service Dogs have a broad range of rights covered by the Americans with Disabilities Act. The owner of a Service Dog merely has to state the dog is just that a "Service Dog". Any other inquiry into an owner of a Service Dog is against the law.
    They are allowed to ask:

    Q7. What questions can a covered entity's employees ask to determine if a dog is a service animal?
    A. In situations where it is not obvious that the dog is a service animal, staff may ask only two specific questions: (1) is the dog a service animal required because of a disability? and (2) what work or task has the dog been trained to perform? Staff are not allowed to request any documentation for the dog, require that the dog demonstrate its task, or inquire about the nature of the person's disability.


    DEFINITION OF A SERVICE ANIMAL. A. Under the ADA, a service animal is defined as a dog that has been individually trained to do work or perform tasks for an individual with a disability. The task(s) performed by the dog must be directly related to the person's disability.

    Source: https://www.ada.gov/regs2010/service_animal_qa.html

    Draw from this your own conclusions about the validity of said service (asserted by sierra) animal and said individual taking him into Baxter State Park.

    I can imagine Randy Pierce and one of his dogs climbing Katahdin, and I believe that would be well within the provisions of the law.

    I know that puppy raisers bring puppies into places while raising them to become service dogs. I am speaking primarily of indoor sporting events my son has participated in and the family of a teammate of his has been raising puppies for years and brings them to indoor venues. Whether this is legal or simply accepted I cannot say. I also know of a diabetic teammate who has a trained service animal for that reason.

    Tim
    Last edited by bikehikeskifish; 07-03-2017 at 09:16 PM.
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  11. #26
    Senior Member skiguy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bikehikeskifish View Post
    They are allowed to ask:

    Q7. What questions can a covered entity's employees ask to determine if a dog is a service animal?
    A. In situations where it is not obvious that the dog is a service animal, staff may ask only two specific questions: (1) is the dog a service animal required because of a disability? and (2) what work or task has the dog been trained to perform? Staff are not allowed to request any documentation for the dog, require that the dog demonstrate its task, or inquire about the nature of the person's disability.


    DEFINITION OF A SERVICE ANIMAL. A. Under the ADA, a service animal is defined as a dog that has been individually trained to do work or perform tasks for an individual with a disability. The task(s) performed by the dog must be directly related to the person's disability.

    Source: https://www.ada.gov/regs2010/service_animal_qa.html

    Draw from this your own conclusions about the validity of said service (asserted by sierra) animal and said individual taking him into Baxter State Park.

    I can imagine Randy Pierce and one of his dogs climbing Katahdin, and I believe that would be well within the provisions of the law.

    I know that puppy raisers bring puppies into places while raising them to become service dogs. I am speaking primarily of indoor sporting events my son has participated in and the family of a teammate of his has been raising puppies for years and brings them to indoor venues. Whether this is legal or simply accepted I cannot say. I also know of a diabetic teammate who has a trained service animal for that reason.

    Tim
    Thankyou for the link as it continues the discussion. Always important to know all the rules.
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  12. #27
    Senior Member Driver8's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TJ aka Teej View Post
    Claiming there is some negotiation, some interview process to apply for, some special exception to be granted, is misinformation.
    Service dogs are allowed.
    Pets are not.
    Are you suggesting Baxter's rangers didn't allow Cole into the park and that he was illegally brought in, without their approval? Are you suggesting that Alton is lying when she says, more or less, that she begged and pleaded for Cole to be let in, and BSP relented? Her story seems pretty credible to me.

    She may have succeeded in cajoling BSP into letting Superpup in where other owners of non-on-duty service dogs might have failed. If so, your complaint is with BSP, is it not?
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  13. #28
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    To date I haven't seen any formal response from BSP. IMHO, the "begged & pleaded" is far more likely a dramatic justification for a far simpler solution, lying about the dogs status. As far as I can see and much to the frustration of many, the Service Dog category comes down to a self affirmation by the owner that the dog is or isn't a Service Dog. There is an entire industry that has sprung up around the ambiguity. With the exception of the two questions there is no way that the status can be challenged and to do so brings instant threats of litigation. There have been attempts to clarify this issue but to date the legal systems seem to be weighed heavily towards allowing the abuse of the service dog category by individuals who want special treatment for their pets. Thus you have a dog owner that appears to be immensely bonded to her companion animal who has shown a very distinct flair for publicity in the past who has a high motivation to answer yes to a question that cannot readily be challenged and is easy to obfuscate with terms like therapy dog or emotional support animal.

  14. #29
    Senior Member DayTrip's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bikehikeskifish View Post
    They are allowed to ask:

    Q7. What questions can a covered entity's employees ask to determine if a dog is a service animal?
    A. In situations where it is not obvious that the dog is a service animal, staff may ask only two specific questions: (1) is the dog a service animal required because of a disability? and (2) what work or task has the dog been trained to perform? Staff are not allowed to request any documentation for the dog, require that the dog demonstrate its task, or inquire about the nature of the person's disability.


    DEFINITION OF A SERVICE ANIMAL. A. Under the ADA, a service animal is defined as a dog that has been individually trained to do work or perform tasks for an individual with a disability. The task(s) performed by the dog must be directly related to the person's disability.

    Source: https://www.ada.gov/regs2010/service_animal_qa.html

    Draw from this your own conclusions about the validity of said service (asserted by sierra) animal and said individual taking him into Baxter State Park.

    I can imagine Randy Pierce and one of his dogs climbing Katahdin, and I believe that would be well within the provisions of the law.

    I know that puppy raisers bring puppies into places while raising them to become service dogs. I am speaking primarily of indoor sporting events my son has participated in and the family of a teammate of his has been raising puppies for years and brings them to indoor venues. Whether this is legal or simply accepted I cannot say. I also know of a diabetic teammate who has a trained service animal for that reason.

    Tim
    Good information. I am surprised that you are not allowed to ask for documentation though. Doesn't that essentially open the door for anybody to bring any dog and just say it's a service dog? Seems like that would essentially render this law useless. All you'd have to say is that my dog detects low blood sugar for me. Without registration documents or some sort of certification to validate how does this law accomplish anything? Did I miss something reading this??
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  15. #30
    Senior Member DayTrip's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Becca M View Post
    I still don't understand how the dog got in there - ? The person seemed to brag about getting the dog into the park which makes it look like there was some kind of fraud involved - ?
    Did it seem like bragging to you? That really wasn't my impression. She went out of her way to elaborate on what she did to get approval for entry, the rules, etc. I think bragging about gaming the system would have had a different tone to it. Her group also does a lot of hikes, lists, etc with lots of rules for completion that they obviously follow so I got the impression they made a good faith effort to get the dog legitimately into the park. Why post bragging about it of it was not legal? Just my opinion obviously. I don't know any of these people personally so I could be totally wrong.
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