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Thread: F&G at Breaking Point for Rescue Funding

  1. #16
    Senior Member sierra's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brambor View Post
    We are so NIMBYfied. It's sickening.

    Just leave the bodies in the woods. Just like Everest.
    I do wear green boots.

  2. #17
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    I split out into lines again the make the responses clear. I prefer the keep focused on the question at hand (funding NH F&G), but epistemological sidebars are inevitable it seems.

    Quote Originally Posted by skiguy View Post
    Feel free to parse my words with your rehtorical[sic] web to fit your beliefs but my point was that I do not agree with your line of thinking.
    1.) I don't believe I parsed specific words aside from 'entitled', where I sought clarity, not rhetoric. I did parse your sentences, as I do tend to analyze and evaluate statements. Note I am using 'parse' in two distinct ways here. I am also not using rhetoric, at least in it's vernacular use, as I suspect you mean it. While it's true that I do try to string together reasonable arguments to make a point, if you're calling me out on that, then thanks.

    I do strongly object to the notion that I am twisting your words to match up with my beliefs. Your failure to address my arguments and instead attack me for merely being persuasive is unnecessary and doesn't add to the discussion. It's quite clear that you disagree with my line of thinking: it's less clear as to why.

    Quote Originally Posted by skiguy View Post
    I did not mention anything about agreeing with acquiring Federal Money as a solution.
    2.) That is correct, but also, I didn't say you did. I asked if it was fair, which you have not answered one way or the other. This is the issue in the thread and the main point of contention here, so commenting on this would add value to the thread.

    Quote Originally Posted by skiguy View Post
    What I am saying is that many folks feel entitled to services from the state of NH when they shouldn’t be.
    3.) This is an oft repeated line, but it is a conclusion. What are the arguments you make to support the conclusion? I've laid out my stance re: money to the general fund through Room and Meals, and Gas taxes that are a direct result of people visiting the mountains. If those people are contributing, why should they not be entitled to rescue services?

    Quote Originally Posted by skiguy View Post
    My use of the word “entitled” has nothing to do with infringing a buzz word. It is used to convey the concept that some believe oneself to be inherently deserving of privileges or special treatment. I am in no way using the word “entitled” to infer a comparison that others may be less deserving. Of course anyone is deserving of a rescue.
    4.) If 'many folks feel entitled to services' is your gripe, then is expecting to being rescued (if needed) a reasonable expectation, or a privilege/special treatment?

    It seems to me that you are arguing that some people aren't entitled to these services, but it's not clear who these people are, or what services specifically you mean. In the context of this thread, it should be 'people who need F&G to do a S&R for them, and the service is the S&R.

    Quote Originally Posted by skiguy View Post
    It’s about how it gets paid for.
    5.) Agreed, but this comes back to the point in section three (3).

    Quote Originally Posted by skiguy View Post
    Mainly taking responsibility for one’s own actions.
    6.) This philosophy has a secondary purpose of off-loading anyone else's problems onto themselves. It's used to ignore vast amounts of human suffering and cast people as 'victims of their own stupidity'. It is inherently anti-social, and is unproductive in practice and conversation.

    Perhaps you can explain to me how "taking responsibility for one's own actions" would have helped the women who fell backwards and broke her back on Lafayette years ago? No matter how much responsibility she took, she still needed to be carried.

    Quote Originally Posted by skiguy View Post
    To infer I am being ambiguous and also disengenuous[sic] is a figment of your own imagination.
    7.) I was attacking the argument in general, not you. Using a word that has multiple meanings in a way that isn't clear to others is ambiguous. I think people that make arguments that invoke the use of 'entitled' to derided a group of people do so with an understanding on the ambiguity, and therefore are being disingenuous.

    Someone who repeats an argument without understanding it isn't being disingenuous - they are indoctrinated. This afflicts everyone to some degree (including me), as we don't have the time/mental capacity to consider every argument we are presented with; however, issues arise when we double-down on arguments that we don't understand when confronted with a valid counter argument. This is where belief usurps reason (and I get sad).

    Quote Originally Posted by skiguy View Post
    Being concrete I also find your insinuation that The State of NH has plenty of money to cover these costs and politicians are just being stingy just your opinion unless you have corroborative facts to support that Statement.
    8.) The arguments are laid out in this thread: http://www.vftt.org/forums/showthrea...ged-for-Rescue in post 68, with follow up in posts 81, and 84. The estimates are meant to be reasonable, and would absolutely be adjusted with the introduction of more accurate information. Ultimately, I think NH should study this to come up with accurate numbers for all recreation users.

  3. #18
    Senior Member skiguy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TJsName View Post
    I split out into lines again the make the responses clear. I prefer the keep focused on the question at hand (funding NH F&G), but epistemological sidebars are inevitable it seems.



    1.) I don't believe I parsed specific words aside from 'entitled', where I sought clarity, not rhetoric. I did parse your sentences, as I do tend to analyze and evaluate statements. Note I am using 'parse' in two distinct ways here. I am also not using rhetoric, at least in it's vernacular use, as I suspect you mean it. While it's true that I do try to string together reasonable arguments to make a point, if you're calling me out on that, then thanks.

    I do strongly object to the notion that I am twisting your words to match up with my beliefs. Your failure to address my arguments and instead attack me for merely being persuasive is unnecessary and doesn't add to the discussion. It's quite clear that you disagree with my line of thinking: it's less clear as to why.


    2.) That is correct, but also, I didn't say you did. I asked if it was fair, which you have not answered one way or the other. This is the issue in the thread and the main point of contention here, so commenting on this would add value to the thread.


    3.) This is an oft repeated line, but it is a conclusion. What are the arguments you make to support the conclusion? I've laid out my stance re: money to the general fund through Room and Meals, and Gas taxes that are a direct result of people visiting the mountains. If those people are contributing, why should they not be entitled to rescue services?


    4.) If 'many folks feel entitled to services' is your gripe, then is expecting to being rescued (if needed) a reasonable expectation, or a privilege/special treatment?

    It seems to me that you are arguing that some people aren't entitled to these services, but it's not clear who these people are, or what services specifically you mean. In the context of this thread, it should be 'people who need F&G to do a S&R for them, and the service is the S&R.


    5.) Agreed, but this comes back to the point in section three (3).


    6.) This philosophy has a secondary purpose of off-loading anyone else's problems onto themselves. It's used to ignore vast amounts of human suffering and cast people as 'victims of their own stupidity'. It is inherently anti-social, and is unproductive in practice and conversation.

    Perhaps you can explain to me how "taking responsibility for one's own actions" would have helped the women who fell backwards and broke her back on Lafayette years ago? No matter how much responsibility she took, she still needed to be carried.


    7.) I was attacking the argument in general, not you. Using a word that has multiple meanings in a way that isn't clear to others is ambiguous. I think people that make arguments that invoke the use of 'entitled' to derided a group of people do so with an understanding on the ambiguity, and therefore are being disingenuous.

    Someone who repeats an argument without understanding it isn't being disingenuous - they are indoctrinated. This afflicts everyone to some degree (including me), as we don't have the time/mental capacity to consider every argument we are presented with; however, issues arise when we double-down on arguments that we don't understand when confronted with a valid counter argument. This is where belief usurps reason (and I get sad).


    8.) The arguments are laid out in this thread: http://www.vftt.org/forums/showthrea...ged-for-Rescue in post 68, with follow up in posts 81, and 84. The estimates are meant to be reasonable, and would absolutely be adjusted with the introduction of more accurate information. Ultimately, I think NH should study this to come up with accurate numbers for all recreation users.
    Very good. Duly noted.
    "I'm getting up and going to work everyday and I am stoked. That does not suck!"__Shane McConkey

  4. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by ChrisB View Post

    And it looks like Hike Safe is not produced the windfall hoped for...

    ..."The voluntary Hike Safe Card program introduced in 2015 is generating between $75,000 and $120,000 a year for the search and rescue fund, but is an unpredictable revenue source."
    Hunting and fishing licenses are not voluntary. Perhaps they need to consider mandatory hiking permits.

  5. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by jfb View Post
    Hunting and fishing licenses are not voluntary. Perhaps they need to consider mandatory hiking permits.
    What about those of us who already carry third party rescue insurance?

  6. #21
    Senior Member dug's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JoshandBaron View Post
    What about those of us who already carry third party rescue insurance?
    What about those of us who are just going for a walk in the woods and not hiking?

  7. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by dug View Post
    What about those of us who are just going for a walk in the woods and not hiking?
    What about those of us who just need some help getting out of the woods and not a rescue?

  8. #23
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    That has been an issue, older folks with dementia have led to several high profile S&R events are they hikers?. There was a S&R for some folks who got lost coming back from Diana's Baths this weekend. Were they hiking?. At least Monadnock has a parking fee to raid.

    It would be interesting if someone has attempted to pay for a NH S&R with third party rescue insurance? There has been a least one carry out where the person being carried had a Hike Safe card.

  9. #24
    Senior Member Brambor's Avatar
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    I'm perplexed (a little bit) at why should going to the mountains and making good decisions somehow result in the considering it a privilege to be rescued - otherwise getting an earful from those who like to lament S&R costs?

    Playing High School Football, for example, where hi speed impact is actually expected which by itself is a p r e t t y d u m b d e c i s i o n , is not lamented ? Calling an ambulance for concussions and fractures during a football game is not frowned upon even though it costs at least $1000 and goes up from there. In many cases it is actually covered within one's health insurance.

    On one hand a mountain rescue is an unintended accident of non impact sport (hiking) whereas a football game is a is an occasional result of a sport that smashes two bodies together.

    Seems like a weird logic to me.
    Luck is where preparation meets opportunity.

  10. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by peakbagger View Post
    It would be interesting if someone has attempted to pay for a NH S&R with third party rescue insurance? There has been a least one carry out where the person being carried had a Hike Safe card.
    The Hike Safe card only gives F&G $25. For $20 a person can get third party rescue insurance and reimburse the agency for 100% of their costs without having to go through the negligence/recklessness battle. If the card cost is intended solely to fund S&R, I would think an insurance mandate would make a bigger dent in their S&R costs than a Hike Safe card mandate and save F&G the trouble of administering the Hike Safe program.

  11. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by JoshandBaron View Post
    What about those of us who already carry third party rescue insurance?
    How does third party rescue insurance help fund NH F&G?

  12. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by dug View Post
    What about those of us who are just going for a walk in the woods and not hiking?
    What about those of us who are just walking in the woods carrying a fishing rod?

  13. #28
    Senior Member Mike P.'s Avatar
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    The Whites do have a parking permit that should be funding some SAR or are they repaving all the lots and the Mt.Clinton Road? Third party rescue insurance would pay for rescue cost if and only if you required a rescue in NH.

    In a state that tries to gave lower taxes than others in the region, are funds that were meant to go for rescues getting dropped into the general fund? It seems that when it appears there is a case of sending a bill for a rescue, the case is usually settled for a non-disclosed amount. (Taking a case to trail makes lawyers money and if they lost might jeopardize being able to collect anything.)


    Rescues should have multipliers based on stupid you are. Went for a hike greater than ten miles or start when there are just a couple hours of light left and you failed to bring a headlamp, double the fee. First time on a trail or on a mountain without a map, double the cost. (I think I can get up the Crawford Path for the 20th time without a map and know where I am going) Heading up above treeline in the winter traction and you slip and fall, double the fee. Do more than one of these and you better start a go fund me page.


    If I slip on a wet or loose rock and think that the damp root was not wet enough to be a hazard (I should know better) that might qualify as an accident. If I head out without a map, without a light when I likely will be back within a couple of hours of dark or don't do any research beyond an Instagram page so I don't know that 2 miles and 100 feet of elevation gain is different than 2 miles and 1900 feet of elevation gain, the idea I may need a rescue is not a chance, it's a near certainty I will have a problem.
    Have fun & be safe
    Mike P.

  14. #29
    Senior Member ChrisB's Avatar
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    The NH (Dis)Advantage?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mike P. View Post
    In a state that tries to gave lower taxes than others in the region, are funds that were meant to go for rescues getting dropped into the general fund?
    Folks,

    This entire issue (F&G funding) is a sidebar and part of the much larger story / problem with how the Granite State plays financial shell games with its limited resources.

    NH's "Low Tax" mantra comes home to roost in many ways: statewide k-8 educational funding, statewide infrastructure funding, state university funding, and even F&G funding.

    The NH legislature is fond of down-shifting costs to cities and towns, and then crowing about their balanced budget. They know full well the only recourse municipalities have is to raise property taxes to make ends meet. At the same time the penurious legislature jealously guards the rooms and meal tax, refusing to give a cut to the localities where those $$ are collected.

    Our booze profits and lottery windfall are essentially sin taxes that work. And we of course are happy to take any Federal handout we can get (it's not coming out of our pocket, or so the thinking goes).

    If you asked many state legislators, I bet they would wholeheartedly endorse the "privatization" of rescue. After all, it works for the prison system.

    So Live Free or Die, with emphasis on the latter.

    cb
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  15. #30
    Senior Member roadtripper's Avatar
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    Start charging $5/day to park at Arethusa Falls, Falling Waters, and other high-target parking areas in state parks in/near the Whites and use that money to fund F&G better. Problem solved.

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