Traditional maps/guidebooks obsolete?

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Sanbu

Member
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May 10, 2016
Messages
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Location
China
Growing up in New England, I had access to trail info and maps for almost any locale in the entire six-state region. The printed guidebooks and maps were easy to find and wonderfully informative.

Then I retired and moved to China. I was astonished and dismayed by the overall lack of trail info and maps. To be sure, there are a few exceptions, e.g., Gary McCue’s “Trekking Tibet” (latest edition now ten years old), or the most popular treks which are well documented on the internet, e.g., Tiger Leaping Gorge and Yubeng Village.

But for the many places I wanted to explore in Yunnan Province, pretty much nothing. Nada! So, I decided to hit the ground, walk about, and share what I learned on the internet. So far, I have published several articles about hiking in Yunnan, some of them with maps and detailed hiking info. These are available for free on a website catering to expatriates and English-speaking readers.

Now here’s the thing. My approach arises out of a lifetime using printed maps and guidebooks, like the AMC White Mountain Guide. The difference of course is that my articles are published on the internet instead of on paper.

Reading some of the threads here at VFTT, leads me to ponder whether my approach will be all that helpful to a generation of hikers that values cell phones and GPS tracks. A recent thread discussed the Guthook guides, how on some long-distance trails most hikers are navigating exclusively by phone app.

So, I am left wondering whether my articles are a colossal waste of my time. Perhaps the actual audience for them approaches the vanishing point. Perhaps they will be ignored by those who I thought would benefit.

I do find making the maps and writing up the hikes immensely fulfilling. I could see myself continuing for years to come, as long as I am able to continue walking and exploring (I am closer to seventy than to sixty).

To date most of my articles have been limited to day hikes. I am now working on trekking areas with potential for multi-day hikes.

I don’t use GPS, although I may learn how in the future. In one case I did use GPS tracks to trace hiking routes onto my map. The situation in China is clouded because of stories that individuals have been deported for using GPS “for mapping”, whatever that means.

As a matter of interest, there is a Chinese hiking app that allows sharing of GPS tracks for all regions of China. I have looked at their website and it includes tracks for local areas of interest to me. The website appears to be legit, that is, they appear to have a proper Chinese business license which is mentioned on the “About” page. But I am still wary. I won’t spell out their URL other than to say it consists of six of the letter “o” with an “f” in front and a “t” at the end, dot com. As is customary with Chinese web sites, you have to *turn off* your VPN to load the website.

Who hikes in Yunnan? Who is the audience for my articles? There are relatively few Chinese hikers and backpackers, nothing percentage wise as in USA. Reportedly the number is growing, however. Many will probably pass over an article written in English as mine are. (However, I do make the maps bilingual.) My impression is that most who hike here, whether Chinese or foreign, hire a guide service. This makes sense for convenience sake, and for the foreigners, eliminates the language barrier. But it all comes at a high price. Finally, there would be people who trek independently without guides, a rather small group. Outside of the most popular trekking areas, I have only met one other foreigner deep in the outback.

For myself I do hire a local guide for multi-day trips, for safety and to handle the mule to carry my gear—at my age carrying a light pack is a joy. Hiring guides who speak only Chinese is a big money saver. I typically do day hikes solo.

Another potential focus for mapping/guidebooking is the many parks and recreation areas that have been developed in China. These are often exploited to the max by the Chinese government to bring in mobs of visitors in order to maximize the collection of entrance fees. Many have gondola rides to bring visitors up a mountain or deeper into the park. At one park I visited, our group waited in line 5 hours to hop on the gondola up the mountain. Coming back down we waited two hours in line, in the rain.

These parks typically provide a miniscule map on the back of the entrance ticket. So small you need a magnifying glass to decipher it. Sometimes the map shows walking routes, sometimes they just want to herd you onto the gondola ride and if you try to hike outside of the approved zone, you get told firmly “No walking here”.

What would be helpful is a larger map, in English, showing the walking paths that you can use to avoid the gondola. And telling when to visit in order to avoid the crowds. That would mean, for example, avoiding the National Holiday first week of October, and the Spring Festival time in January-February.

Back to the main point of the post. What will serve the needs of hikers in terms of maps and info, in an area currently lacking such? Should I move away from traditional map and written info, whether on paper or static internet? Should I move in the direction of GPS and interactive cell phone app?

At this point I don’t know. I’m open to hearing different perspectives from folks on these forums.
 
I was under the impression that in China you had to get special gov't permission to make maps and that they weren't exactly liberal with allowing it. And what is out there is wildly inaccurate by mandate. Are these just old tales?
 
Right. Printed maps also don't need batteries.

Many areas are seeing a swing to putting lots of stuff on screens. But I think over another decade you will see this pendulum swing back a bit.

The process has gone like this:

Top Manager: "I see lots of idiots everywhere hypnotized by their smart phones. Can I make money off of this?"
Marketing Guy: "Yes! Let's try to make everything look like a smart phone!"
Top Manager: "OK. That's our strategy."

But now you are beginning to see analyses showing how much touch screens in cars increase distracted driving; many expensive rescues from people relying on phones in the woods; etc.. My Subaru has a touch screen for the radio. (I was not able to get a new Subaru without that; I tried.) But it constantly displays warnings about all the times when you shouldn't try to use it, which is comical. It's like they knew it was a bad idea, but they put it in the car because some marketing guy told them to.

So I think this pendulum will swing back a bit eventually.
 
I think traditional maps and guidebooks will eventually be obsolete. The market for traditional maps and guide books will continue to shrink as the population ages. At some point, it will not make commercial sense to continue. I cannot remember the last time I used a paper map in my car. I just set the GPS and go. Personally I will always carry a paper map.
 
I love maps and over the years I have built up a nice collection, but like JToll, I no longer use paper maps for driving. I still carry hiking paper maps with me but I find that I use them less and less for planning.

"Obsolete" is a strong word, but I have a feeling that paper maps and publications will become a niche category, perhaps expensive in order to recover fixed publishing cost.

Here are some observations based on a small data set consisting of my hiking friends:
* most of my friends use AllTrails for hike planning
* some of my friends are premium AllTrails subscribers which gives them ability to download maps for off-line use
* some of my friends use Avenza for NYNJTC-published maps
* I have not heard any of my friends mention Guthook, but then none of them attempted any thru-hikes
* my friend who likes backpacking tends to do route planning in Caltopo and shares the routes with me and other friends via web links
* personally, for hike planning I use a combination of relevant local web sites, blogs, AllTrails, and for some areas I use guidebooks.

Based on this small sample it seems like AllTrails is quite popular for day hiking - Google playstore claims over 5 million downloads and shows 29k reviews. I guess the secret to their success lies in what I would call an "Amazon experience": decent trail descriptions and maps, user ratings with comments, lots of user-uploaded pictures, links that are easy to share with friends. If you pay the premium you get the perks.

Barring any mishaps this is all that 95% of hikers need in terms of route planning and staying on trail. Clearly, a large paper map is better for identifying nearby peaks, but I suspect most casual hikers don't care about it enough to get paper maps.

While many of us grew up on paper maps there are more and more hikers who had a smartphone for baby-sitter and consequently they trust their smartphone for maps. The fact that this smartphone could fail, run out of juice, or just fall into a stream does not seem to be of much concern. Convenience outweighs safety concerns.

As to the OP's question I think many publishers try different venues for their content, however, in many cases only a few of these venues will emerge as dominant over time, and it may be hard to reach users outside of winning platforms. Living in regulated world obviously may limit what can or cannot be done.
 
I use caltopo and Guthook. I see a lot of gaia use on trail as well.

I do carry a map and compass but hardly ever use them. I do find the compass handy for following a bearing when off trail but the phone or gps is absolutely more convenient for me.

Tim
 
Lots of interesting comments and without getting into details I will say that I’m mostly a hybrid edition of old-school map/guidebook/compass navigation and new-school internet research.

But as to the core question of whether the old way of doing things will eventually become obsolete, I think it is at least partially measurable by looking at some numbers. When I first started peakbagging as an aspiring 46R in the early 90s, there was only one option. You simply had to buy the High Peaks guidebook and map. The information contained within spoke to you as if uttered by God him/herself. You relied on it, read it, studied it. The book became a friend. You bought a second map to hang on the wall or keep in a favored place.

So anyway, during the three years I pursued the 46Rs in 1993, 1994 and 1995, there were 184, 193 and 274 new 46Rs to officially register. The number of finishers continued in the mid-100s to mid-200s all the way up to 2010. And then “something” happened. There was a huge spike in the numbers. The last three years where numbers are available are 2015, 2016 and 2017 when 605, 712 and 735 new 46Rs were recognized.

To me, the key question is what have Adirondack High Peaks guidebook sales have been like during this time frame (since 2010)? If a majority of hikers continue to cling to old school map and guidebook travel, then one would expect that sales of the High Peaks guidebook have been through the roof. Would be interesting if Mr. Tony Goodwin could chime in with sales numbers if he is aware of them. My suspicion is that guidebook sales have been steady or perhaps even dropped since the early 90s through today as there are now many other ways of obtaining trail/route information. And maps can be found online digitally and then stored on personal devices ... which quite frankly is much less awkward than busting out a map in a windstorm and then watching it fly into the great beyond (actually happened to me once).

Anyway, interesting discussion.
 
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I have never used a GPS unit or a hiking app. Even out west, its map and guidebook. I know, I'm a dinosaur.
 
Map and guidebook for me for hiking. I use (electronic) technology to check weather/radar and sometimes most recent trs (though most these days are not trs at all).
 
I was under the impression that in China you had to get special gov't permission to make maps and that they weren't exactly liberal with allowing it. And what is out there is wildly inaccurate by mandate. Are these just old tales?

My understanding: the state supposedly requires permission, the question is to what extent it is enforced. Laws are often written with wriggle room, but in any event are subject to interpretation. What is allowed in one place can be verboten in another. The site I write for is located within the realm, another requirement supposedly.

The existence of a licensed, and therefore approved by someone, website with GPS tracks points to the possibility of things changing. Of course, the site and app and an individual's contributions might very well be under scrutiny by the powers.

In an attempt to operate under the radar, the stuff I create is not as useful as it could be. Notably, no contour lines on my creations. For now.

Various mapping websites are available and approved within the realm. The rest accessible with Vee Pee En.

As you're probably aware, social medial is blocked in these parts. Curiously, the English language CGTN has a presence on standard (blocked) social media for communicating and for feedback. They advertize it at the end of some broadcasts. There's even a segment on one show that talks about what's trending on social media (so long as not negative toward the realm).

CGTN = China Global Television Network, available in half a dozen different languages. I used to get the English language channel at home via cable. Then they dropped it and I wasn't willing to pay an extra 25rmb ($3.50) per month to have it restored to the lineup.
 
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The longer I live the expatriate life the more I live outside the loop, or at least one of so many loops.

gaia? trs?
 
An example of ap versus map. I knew a group that was doing a trip to Ice Gulch today. I had things to do but stopped by to say Hi. All they had was various aps like All Trails with questionable trails databases. They are accustomed to blazed and signed trails. The All Trails and some other ap showed a loop from the south end It did not even show the new trailhead on the end of Randolph Hill road. The route didnt show the turn onto the Cook Path and showed using the Randolph Town Forest Road which is not signed. They probably would have found their way out at some point but expect they would be real confused and may have elected to go back down the gulch. Not one of the group had a map, I live nearby so I went back home and got them a real map and got them going in the right direction. It was obvious that many in the group really were clueless on reading a map.
 
All they had was various aps like All Trails with questionable trails databases.
Maps can be quite different than what really is the current state of the trails. New trails get added, existing ones get rerouted, old ones get abandoned and fall out of use. For example, I have already modified AT location on OSM several times in places where it was rerouted.
Regarding the specific location that you described, I took a look at a couple of different sources i.e. AllTrails, OpenStreetMap & Strava Heatmap. They don't agree on what paths / wood roads are there. Strava Heatmap shows use for a segment that is not marked on AllTrails, while it is also showing no use for some wood roads that are marked on OSM - perhaps some abandoned logging roads. Finally, I also pulled out a map that came with 30th edition of WMG (Map 6: North Country - Mahoosuc Range) and perhaps I missing something but that map seems to be consistent with Ice Gulch / Cook Path loop that AllTrails is showing. I am not familiar with the area, so I would be hiking with open mind given the information I just looked up. Yet I suspect most hikers, especially if they join a group, don't feel the need to do their homework which is just too bad.
AllTrails:
2019-07-14.jpg
OpenStreetMap:
2019-07-14 (2).jpg
Strava Heatmap:
2019-07-14 (1).jpg
Snippet from WMG 30th edition, Map 6:
2019-07-14-WMG-30-6.jpg
 
I forgot to mention in my prior post that maps relying on user-contributed data are also subject to vandalism, so that also should be kept in mind when planning.
 
All true. In some areas of the country in the rock climbing community, there are people who want to jealously guard their little "secret area." They will intentionally create false paths and incorrect directions on the "crowd sourced" map resources.

Of course one of the first things taught in even a brief Land Navigation class is that the man-made features on any map are subject to change. In most cases the topography does not change as much. But that trail, or building, or even highway may have moved or disappeared since the map was prepared.

Of course also, that discussion is irrelevant today, because 90% of the hikers never educate themselves, and mindlessly walk behind someone else, smart phone in hand, maybe occasionally looking at a trail marker.
 
All they had was various aps like All Trails with questionable trails databases..

Not all apps are equal. Same as having a lousy map or a good map.

I doubt any of them had Guthook's App. He doesn't publish a section until his company has developed the GPS data.
 
Not all apps are equal. Same as having a lousy map or a good map.

I doubt any of them had Guthook's App. He doesn't publish a section until his company has developed the GPS data.

All Trails is notoriously bad. Guthook pays someone to hike the trails they feature with GIS equipment, they don't rely on crowdsourcing map data.
 
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