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  1. #1
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    adk Q

    What's the latest on (herd) path to Street and Nye? Is Nye really a 4Ker, or only for the list?

    Also, does NY have a 'hiker rescue' insurance plan like NH?

  2. #2
    Senior Member TCD's Avatar
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    Herd path is in good shape; heavily traveled. Water is low now at Indian Pass Brook; easy crossing. Follow the path all the way to the crossing with cairns.

    Nye is 3888; only for the traditional list.

    No plan. But currently DEC is not charging for rescues unless it's an egregious case. So there is no insurance that you are required or suggested to get.

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    Senior Member Nessmuk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TCD View Post

    No plan. But currently DEC is not charging for rescues unless it's an egregious case. So there is no insurance that you are required or suggested to get.
    I've been actively involved in NY SAR for 25 years. While there are plenty of cases of people injured or unprepared and making major mistakes, even egregious and stupid moves, AFAIK, no one has ever been charged for any of them and there has not been any serious official talk to go in that direction. Many people are assisted with injury or navigation problems (rescued) every week during the busy seasons, most being resolved within just a few hours, including expensive helicopter extractions. A few difficult cases may take a bit longer and involve massive resources over many days. If you go to the NYSDEC website and look at weekly press releases, you can read brief accounts of Ranger activities for the week.
    Last edited by Nessmuk; 08-08-2019 at 06:07 AM.
    "She's all my fancy painted her, she's lovely, she is light. She waltzes on the waves by day and rests with me at night." - Nessmuk, Forest and Stream, July 21, 1880 [of the Wood Drake Canoe built for him by Rushton]

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    Senior Member Tom Rankin's Avatar
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    I was just told about a person who had to be rescued TWO NIGHTS IN A ROW (!!!) because he did not have a light!!! Now, that makes me think a 'stupid tax' should be levied!
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    Not to worry. I always carry a light. Came in handy once on a 14 hr 'forced march' out of the Pemi thru Z-notch.

    S&N are not far from the the trailhead at the ADK center. As a result, are there a lot of hikers heading there?

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    Senior Member Nessmuk's Avatar
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    I've heard several times of hikers who got stuck out at night who told the NYSDEC rangers that "Yes, I have a flashlight, it is on my cell phone." Are you kidding me???? First real cameras went by the wayside, then hand held GPS units (not to mention compasses and maps) were no longer needed, now flashlights. What next, maybe water bottles will be part of the new crop of cell phones.
    "She's all my fancy painted her, she's lovely, she is light. She waltzes on the waves by day and rests with me at night." - Nessmuk, Forest and Stream, July 21, 1880 [of the Wood Drake Canoe built for him by Rushton]

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    Senior Member TCD's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rup View Post
    Not to worry. I always carry a light. Came in handy once on a 14 hr 'forced march' out of the Pemi thru Z-notch.

    S&N are not far from the the trailhead at the ADK center. As a result, are there a lot of hikers heading there?
    Well Street and Nye are on the "46" list, so there are usually at least some hikers. But these are not often repeated, like say Giant or Cascade or Phelps. For most people these are "one and done." They're not super hard, but they are somewhat unimpressive, Nye is one of the four peaks on the list that is actually lower than 4K, and there are only a few places with views. Mostly, it's "checking the box." So you will see people on a weekend, but you might not see anyone on a weekday.

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    Moderator Peakbagr's Avatar
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    In the 70's and early 80's, there were many confusing herd paths. One led downstream toward the ranch. When rangers would get a call that a hiker was overdue here, they would often begin the search downstream. Pre-electronic navigating, once down on the stream you had no viz to be able to back shoot your location. With the established herd path and GPS/phones, rarely a lost hiker.
    "The fact that going off the deep end appears
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    Senior Member Nessmuk's Avatar
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    For example:
    Town of Santa Clara
    Franklin County
    Wilderness Rescue: On July 30 at 9:04 p.m., Franklin County 911 transferred a call to DEC's Ray Brook Dispatch from a female hiker who had been separated from her husband while hiking St. Regis Mountain. The woman was concerned because it was dark. She reported that her husband did not have a cell phone or any source of light and that her only light source was the phone. Dispatch advised her against using the flash light function on her phone to conserve battery life. Using coordinates obtained through Franklin County 911, Dispatch was able to confirm that she was still on the St. Regis trail. Forest Rangers David Russell and Thomas Gliddi responded and by 12:02 a.m., they made contact with the caller. Forest Ranger Gliddi continued up the trail to search for her husband. At 12:49 a.m., Forest Ranger Gliddi had made it to the summit, followed a ridgeline, and down a drainage without making contact. Forest Ranger Gliddi met back up with Forest Ranger Russell and the wife and proceeded back to the trailhead where a note was left on her husband's car to call Dispatch if he made it out to his vehicle. A courtesy ride was given to his wife back to Malone. On July 31 at first light, additional Forest Rangers were dispatched to the trailhead to continue search operations. The missing 24-year-old hiker was located at 7:09 a.m. by Forest Ranger Robert Zurek in good health and brought to the trailhead. The hiker stated he hiked for an hour after he left his wife when he realized he could not find the trail and waited for morning. At first light, the hiker climbed a tree, spotted the fire tower at the summit, and hiked to the summit where he located the trail and started down toward the trailhead.

    Town of Chesterfield
    Essex County
    Wilderness Rescue: On July 17 at 8:56 p.m., Essex County 911 transferred a call to DEC's Ray Brook Dispatch from a female hiker on Poke-O-Moonshine Mountain whose group strayed from the original trail and became lost. The group from Plattsburgh consisted of the caller, her husband, and eight children (two 14-year-olds, two 12-year-olds, one 10-year-old, one eight-year-old, and two four-year-olds). The family's cell phones were their only sources of light and Dispatch advised the group to conserve the batteries by not using the phones. Forest Rangers Scott VanLaer and Sarah Bode responded using the coordinates attained through Essex County 911, which placed the group near the Jeep Trail. Forest Rangers VanLaer and Bode made contact with the group at 10:47 p.m. After supplying the hiking party with food, water, and lights, the Forest Rangers escorted them back down to the trail head.

    Town of Keene
    Essex County
    Wilderness Rescue: On Aug. 6 at 9:42pm., Essex County 911 transferred a call to DEC's Ray Brook Dispatch reporting a woman on Porter Mountain in need of assistance. The caller explained that she had decided to go for a short hike up Porter and began descending down the opposite side once she reached the summit. The subject traveled down the trail until she came to a sign that reported the trail to the Garden parking lot was closed. At that point, she turned around and began to head back the way she came until it was dark. Through coordinates provided by Essex County 911, Dispatch determined that the woman was close to the summit and relatively close to the trail. Forest Ranger Robert Praczkajlo responded to assist. Forest Ranger Praczkajlo made contact with the hiker at 11:51 p.m., and supplied her with a light. They proceeded back down to the trailhead and reached it by 1:30 a.m.
    "She's all my fancy painted her, she's lovely, she is light. She waltzes on the waves by day and rests with me at night." - Nessmuk, Forest and Stream, July 21, 1880 [of the Wood Drake Canoe built for him by Rushton]

  10. #10
    Senior Member TCD's Avatar
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    Very old post, but still 100% true:

    https://www.vftt.org/forums/showthre...l=1#post361799

    Time to do something about this.

    But all our state knows how to do is close parking areas and create traffic danger.

  11. #11
    Senior Member DayTrip's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TCD View Post
    Very old post, but still 100% true:

    https://www.vftt.org/forums/showthre...l=1#post361799

    Time to do something about this.

    But all our state knows how to do is close parking areas and create traffic danger.
    I love the idea of a flat fine for negligent issues. I don't know that I've ever seen that suggested in all of the posts talking about rescues, negligence, etc. No light? Ranger pulls out his little ticket book, gives you a ticket for $100 and off you go more educated about your negligence. Nothing hits the message home better than cash coming out of your pocket. And a person pissed about paying $100 for not having a light will tell plenty of his friends about the incident, which will help with education too. And it makes sense to go after the most common cause of rescues and drill that into the consciousness of everyone rather than an overwhelming shot gun approach to a huge variety of issues. You could even enforce this right at trail heads with the ambassadors: "Hi how are you doing today. Do you have a headlamp? There is a $100 fine for not having one. Do you want to double check your car?".
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  12. #12
    Senior Member TCD's Avatar
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    Thanks. In discussions about this, many people take "all or nothing" positions about the cost of rescue: "Absolutely everything has to be free even in cases of complete negligence!" or "Charge them all $25K for a heli ride!".

    There IS a "middle way" but no one has really done a good job of analyzing data, understanding human behavior, and implementing common sense policies. Oh well...

    rup, you didn't say when you or someone else is planning to visit. This time of year is very good for Street and Nye, due to the low water in Indian Pass Brook. Here in the Adirondacks, we don't have too many "major un-bridged river crossings on the main route to a 'list' peak" situations; I know there are a few in NH. Street and Nye, in particular, are our only peaks that really feature this. There are lots of stories from spring and early summer of problems with this brook crossing, so now is the best time of year for these peaks.

  13. #13
    Senior Member Nessmuk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TCD View Post
    no one has really done a good job of analyzing data, understanding human behavior, and implementing common sense policies. Oh well...
    Try reading this: "Lost Person Behavior: A search and rescue guide on where to look - for land, air and water" by Robert J. Koester

    https://www.amazon.com/Lost-Person-B...gateway&sr=8-1

    Thousands of past cases were analyzed for this book, resulting in standard SAR protocols for different statistical categories of lost persons that most serious SAR organizations (at least certainly NYSDEC Rangers) utilize when planning a major SAR operation. It is amazing how successful the results can be. From time to time a training course is offered based on the contents of this book.
    Last edited by Nessmuk; 08-18-2019 at 09:47 AM.
    "She's all my fancy painted her, she's lovely, she is light. She waltzes on the waves by day and rests with me at night." - Nessmuk, Forest and Stream, July 21, 1880 [of the Wood Drake Canoe built for him by Rushton]

  14. #14
    Senior Member TCD's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nessmuk View Post
    Try reading this: "Lost Person Behavior: A search and rescue guide on where to look - for land, air and water" by Robert J. Koester

    https://www.amazon.com/Lost-Person-B...gateway&sr=8-1

    Thousands of past cases were analyzed for this book, resulting in standard SAR protocols for different statistical categories of lost persons that most serious SAR organizations (at least certainly NYSDEC Rangers) utilize when planning a major SAR operation. It is amazing how successful the results can be. From time to time a training course is offered based on the contents of this book.
    Thanks, Nessmuk. Yes, I have read that book and taken the DEC basic SAR course, years ago.

    I was too broad when I said "no one has done a good job." Authors, Rangers, and various experts in the SAR field have done all this pretty well, and all that information is accessible. What I should have said was "policymakers have not done a good job." To those of us who have been involved in SAR for many years, a lot of this stuff is pretty clear. And to anyone who had a career in Quality Management, as I did, it's second nature to look at data, understand root causes, and use time honored quality management techniques to select the most effective, and cost-effective corrective actions. But in Albany at least, and maybe in NH, it seems like the government policymakers are groping in the dark.

  15. #15
    Senior Member Nessmuk's Avatar
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    TCD, to be clear to the thread, the training I was referring to was a course that is very specific to the lost person behavior book mentioned. Taught by the author, or by others very knowledgeable to him and the details of the analysis with case studies. This is very distinctively different than the DEC Basic Wildlands training that every SAR member is supposed to take ASAP after assignment to a team, or the later DEC Crew Boss Certification (which is really a pass/fail field test, not a training course).

    Another rarely available course is "Management of Lost Person Incidents" (MLPI) which leads SAR students through actual near-local cases, by feeding them bits of information as it becomes available and normally rolls in, just as it would during ranger back-room IC planning and ops functions, eventually leading to successful finds if the student is smart enough to put all the clues together.
    Last edited by Nessmuk; 08-18-2019 at 04:18 PM.
    "She's all my fancy painted her, she's lovely, she is light. She waltzes on the waves by day and rests with me at night." - Nessmuk, Forest and Stream, July 21, 1880 [of the Wood Drake Canoe built for him by Rushton]

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