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Thread: Renowned rock climber dead

  1. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by skiguy View Post
    Non weighted? Hmmmm....sounds like potential elongation and shock loading not to mention not equalized. Do you have any pictures or links to better describe this? http://klingmountainguides.com/kmg-blog/?p=460
    The idea behind this strategy is to only leave only one piece of gear in the rock for the last rappeller. That piece must be tested by the first one down and after deciding it is secure, the backup pieces can be removed. Of course, many climbers will say it is not a safe way to rappel and I agree with them.

  2. #17
    Senior Member skiguy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jfb View Post
    Of course, many climbers will say it is not a safe way to rappel and I agree with them.
    I'm going to agree with you. Let me get this straight. Please correct me if I am wrong or not seeing the whole picture. So if the primary anchor does pop a back up piece has been placed in the system but not loaded? If so must be a nice game of rock paper scissors going on to see whom goes first. I think I'll stick to equalized, non-extending and redundant anchors thankyou very much!
    "I'm getting up and going to work everyday and I am stoked. That does not suck!"__Shane McConkey

  3. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by skiguy View Post
    I'm going to agree with you. Let me get this straight. Please correct me if I am wrong or not seeing the whole picture. So if the primary anchor does pop a back up piece has been placed in the system but not loaded? If so must be a nice game of rock paper scissors going on to see whom goes first. I think I'll stick to equalized, non-extending and redundant anchors thankyou very much!
    You have to consider that if a leader is 50 feet above a belay, places a piece of protection, decides he cannot do the next move and asks to be lowered, the load on that piece of gear is about twice the load on the rappel anchor mentioned previously. I guess that's why gym climbing is so popular.

  4. #19
    Senior Member skiguy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jfb View Post
    You have to consider that if a leader is 50 feet above a belay, places a piece of protection, decides he cannot do the next move and asks to be lowered, the load on that piece of gear is about twice the load on the rappel anchor mentioned previously. I guess that's why gym climbing is so popular.
    Got the physics on that hang dog. But now your talking about leading vs. rapping. That's why they call it the sharp end of the rope. Not a totally fair comparison.
    "I'm getting up and going to work everyday and I am stoked. That does not suck!"__Shane McConkey

  5. #20
    Senior Member ChrisB's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jfb View Post
    The idea behind this strategy is to only leave only one piece of gear in the rock for the last rappeller.
    Yup. It's amazing how cheaply we valued our lives when using this technique!
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  6. #21
    Senior Member DougPaul's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jfb
    The idea behind this strategy is to only leave only one piece of gear in the rock for the last rappeller.
    Quote Originally Posted by ChrisB View Post
    Yup. It's amazing how cheaply we valued our lives when using this technique!
    Sometimes it's not that simple--one may not have enough gear to leave backups at each rapping point.

    Doug

  7. #22
    Senior Member ChrisB's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jfb View Post
    You have to consider that if a leader is 50 feet above a belay, places a piece of protection, decides he cannot do the next move and asks to be lowered, the load on that piece of gear is about twice the load on the rappel anchor mentioned previously. I guess that's why gym climbing is so popular.
    Can someone explain the physics of this to me?

    How can a static load weight on the fixed piece double as a result of the leader being lowered vs. lowering herself on rappel?

    Help!!
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  8. #23
    Senior Member skiguy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ChrisB View Post
    Can someone explain the physics of this to me?

    How can a static load weight on the fixed piece double as a result of the leader being lowered vs. lowering herself on rappel?

    Help!!
    It’s due to the “Pulley Effect”. Read up here and report back with your findings. Hint: The second article under the heading “Bottom Roping” is where the basic answer lies. Or maybe you will get lucky and our esteemed Researh Analyst DougPaul will chime in and simplify it for all of us.

    http://wallrat.com/PDF_Files/forcesinleadfalls.pdf

    https://www.saferclimbing.org/en/blo...-belay-anchors
    "I'm getting up and going to work everyday and I am stoked. That does not suck!"__Shane McConkey

  9. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by skiguy View Post
    I'm going to agree with you. Let me get this straight. Please correct me if I am wrong or not seeing the whole picture. So if the primary anchor does pop a back up piece has been placed in the system but not loaded? If so must be a nice game of rock paper scissors going on to see whom goes first. I think I'll stick to equalized, non-extending and redundant anchors thankyou very much!
    Good luck when for ~6 raps further down and you've got 6 more to go and you're out of gear. You've got a lovely string of textbook anchors above you though. Sometimes you need to know when good enough is good enough.

    Another point - achieving no extension and perfectly equalized is pretty much impossible. You can dabble abound with dynamic equalization, pre equalization and limiter knots knots. A good exercise on the ground on a sunny afternoon but when you are a thousand feet up and the s#$% has hit the fan there are compromise choices to be made. Good enough is good enough.

    Here are 2 examples that the people here will relate to:
    1. The really elite FKT people - how many of the 10 essentials do you think they take? Yet we typically applaud their feats.
    2. In climbing one of the most out there things currently being done is trying 8k meter peaks in winter. Typically done in a 3-5 day "push" - no fixed camps, ropes etc. The participants typically start out with less weight then your average "prudent" White Mountain winter day hiker.

    Its fine to say "not for me" - I am going to be as safe as can be. Just realize the limitations that imposes.

  10. #25
    Senior Member skiguy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OldEric View Post
    Good luck when for ~6 raps further down and you've got 6 more to go and you're out of gear. You've got a lovely string of textbook anchors above you though. Sometimes you need to know when good enough is good enough.

    Another point - achieving no extension and perfectly equalized is pretty much impossible. You can dabble abound with dynamic equalization, pre equalization and limiter knots knots. A good exercise on the ground on a sunny afternoon but when you are a thousand feet up and the s#$% has hit the fan there are compromise choices to be made. Good enough is good enough.

    Here are 2 examples that the people here will relate to:
    1. The really elite FKT people - how many of the 10 essentials do you think they take? Yet we typically applaud their feats.
    2. In climbing one of the most out there things currently being done is trying 8k meter peaks in winter. Typically done in a 3-5 day "push" - no fixed camps, ropes etc. The participants typically start out with less weight then your average "prudent" White Mountain winter day hiker.

    Its fine to say "not for me" - I am going to be as safe as can be. Just realize the limitations that imposes.
    Point well taken and I agree. Fortunately I won’t be doing any 12 pitch walls or 8000 meter peaks in the dead of a Winter any time too soon.
    Last edited by skiguy; 12-04-2019 at 01:20 PM.
    "I'm getting up and going to work everyday and I am stoked. That does not suck!"__Shane McConkey

  11. #26
    Senior Member TCD's Avatar
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    All this is a worthy and informative discussion for folks who are not familiar with technical mountaineering.

    >To the point of not using up your gear: In their famous climb of Gasherbrum IV, Tim McCartney-Snape and Greg Child ran out of anchor hardware on the (20+ if I recall) raps from the top. They fixed the last couple raps by removing the leashes from their ice tools and jamming knotted leashes in cracks in the rock.

    >To another point: Who knows what the conditions were the day of this accident, or how the climbers felt physically. There is an old saying "Speed is safety in the mountains." There are all kinds of objective dangers, and the longer you are out the more you are exposed to risk from these. There is a balance point (VERY difficult to learn) between being super careful at every step but getting killed by bad weather that moves in (for example) and taking some chances to go faster but getting down before the weather. Case by case, situational awareness and experience.

    Dangerous games don't always end well.

  12. #27
    Senior Member ChrisB's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skiguy View Post
    It’s due to the “Pulley Effect”. Read up here and report back with your findings. Hint: The second article under the heading “Bottom Roping” is where the basic answer lies. Or maybe you will get lucky and our esteemed Researh Analyst DougPaul will chime in and simplify it for all of us.

    http://wallrat.com/PDF_Files/forcesinleadfalls.pdf

    https://www.saferclimbing.org/en/blo...-belay-anchors
    I ain’t buying it ski guy! The first artl you cite is really about leader falls. And the second vaguely refers to a “pulley effect “ without explaining how exactly that might work. Hooey I say!

    If a 150 lb climber is being lowered by a belayer on the ground, I don’t see how the anchor above the climber can experience a load heavier than the climber if the descent is smooth and controlled.

    Doug, what say you professor??
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  13. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by ChrisB View Post
    I ain’t buying it ski guy! The first artl you cite is really about leader falls. And the second vaguely refers to a “pulley effect “ without explaining how exactly that might work. Hooey I say!

    If a 150 lb climber is being lowered by a belayer on the ground, I don’t see how the anchor above the climber can experience a load heavier than the climber if the descent is smooth and controlled.

    Doug, what say you professor??
    https://www.educatedclimber.com/mech...age-explained/

  14. #29
    Senior Member DougPaul's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ChrisB View Post
    I ain’t buying it ski guy! The first artl you cite is really about leader falls. And the second vaguely refers to a “pulley effect “ without explaining how exactly that might work. Hooey I say!

    If a 150 lb climber is being lowered by a belayer on the ground, I don’t see how the anchor above the climber can experience a load heavier than the climber if the descent is smooth and controlled.
    Lowering a climber or catching a falling climber from a bottom belay have the same ratios of forces:

    Both the belayer and the climber are pulling down on the top anchor so the sum of the forces is greater than the climber's weight (or impact force if catching a fall). In a frictionless system, the force on the top point will be twice the climber's weight/impact force. Typically the force on the top point is closer to about 1.5 times the weight/impact force due to friction between the rope and the top carabiner. Less if there is friction between the climber and the top point.

    A technical climbing leader should know this.

    Doug
    Last edited by DougPaul; 12-04-2019 at 08:37 PM.

  15. #30
    Senior Member TCD's Avatar
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    Thanks, DougPaul. This is worthwhile information.

    I would imagine that Gobright and Jacobsen did understand all this, as experienced climbers.

    But folks asking about this have taken the discussion down a bit of a sidetrack, which is interesting, but not related to the accident. In the accident, the anchor did not fail. It appears Gobright rappelled off the end of his rope. There are numerous possible causes for this to have happened, and we will probably never know for sure.

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