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Thread: Private Campgrounds can be open in NH

  1. #46
    Senior Member hikerbrian's Avatar
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    Sheer luck that I managed to avoid infection (as far as I know), given what we now know about the timeline of the pandemic's spread in the US. I was on (crowded) public transportation in Boston straight through 3/10. I stopped going into the office well before it was mandated, but the coughing, hacking, people sweating profusely with the heads in their hands while I was two seats away... Luck.

    I'm not overly fond of the current situation, but one can't argue it's uninteresting. If/when we can make it through the danger and concurrent fear, understanding the course this pandemic will have taken will be quite fascinating. My singular hope is that the US, as in the great wars, will stand toe to toe with the adversary (SARS-CoV-2), and the outcome will appear uncertain, but over time our ability to innovate and to muster vast resources will prevail. Time. Time is the thing we need. Time is our great ally. Quality leadership wouldn't hurt. [/soapbox]

    What I'd love to know is, Who is getting the virus RIGHT NOW? MA still has 1500 new cases/day. Who are these people? Essential workers? Healthcare workers? Family of previously infected individuals? What is the correlation between stringency of social distancing and probability of infection?

    My feeling is it's quite easy to social distance while camping. People need to be vigilant and focused, but considering the net benefits, this one seems pretty good. From my perspective traveling from MA: may need to stop for gas once. Wear a mask, use left hand for keypad and gas pump, right hand stays 'clean,' hand sanitizer before getting back in car. At campground, it's easy to stay >20' from anyone the entire time. Unless someone else is determined to invade your social space, it's easy. Hike where people aren't, get way off trail to let people pass if necessary. Bring all needed food from home. Campground fees are a small component of NH tourist economy, but they're something, and I expect that something is pretty important to campground owners.

    I haven't left my yard in >6 weeks for anything except gas for my tractor, pallets for my firewood, and runs in the pouring rain, when no one else is out. None of those required contact closer than 10'. This is not indefinitely sustainable, so I think it makes sense to consider which components of the economy can be opened with maximum benefit:risk ratio.
    Sure. Why not.

  2. #47
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    Speculation on my part is most campgrounds have gone to the long term camper model where the majority of the campsites are rented out for the season. Yes they may have transient sites at the fringes of the campground but the prime spots and revenue is in their pocket prior to the start of the season. If there is a reasonable expectation that a seasonal camper is not going to have access to a site, then many will elect not to lease a site or at a minimum will seek some sort of cost break. Thus the effort to get the campgrounds open.
    Last edited by peakbagger; 04-23-2020 at 04:36 PM. Reason: fix grammar

  3. #48
    Senior Member sierra's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by peakbagger View Post
    Speculation on my part is most campgrounds have gone to the long term camper model where the majority of the campsites are rented out for the season. Yes they may have transient sites at the fringes of the campground but the prime spots and revenue is in their pocket prior to the start of the season. If there isnt not a reasonable expectation that a seasonal camper is not going to have access to a site, then many will elect not to lease a site or at a minimum will seek sort of cost break. Thus the effort to get the campgrounds open.
    My friend has a seasonal site and your theory is pretty damn close. The campground he uses is mostly seasonal sites. My friend called them and they are open for them, not for any others. They in fact would probably go under if they kept out the seasonal, my friend even told me, if they don't let me in, I'm not paying. At that campground its 3 grand a summer, so yes that's the main revenue base.

  4. #49
    Moderator bikehikeskifish's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JoshandBaron View Post
    more delivery options and everyone seems to be taking full advantage of that. The cars parked in resident spots haven't moved in weeks. The vast majority of traffic is trucks and delivery services.
    OK, that makes some sense. Thank you. It was not clear to me what you meant originally by "infrastructure" (but then again, I never get delivery myself... can't easily find a Lyft or an Uber either, unless I am at the airport, or already in Manchester.)

    As hikerbrian points out, MA still has 1500 new cases a day. New Hampshire has about 1500 total. Granted, major population (density) differences exist.

    Tim
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  5. #50
    Senior Member Mike P.'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bikehikeskifish View Post
    OK, that makes some sense. Thank you. It was not clear to me what you meant originally by "infrastructure" (but then again, I never get delivery myself... can't easily find a Lyft or an Uber either, unless I am at the airport, or already in Manchester.)

    As hikerbrian points out, MA still has 1500 new cases a day. New Hampshire has about 1500 total. Granted, major population (density) differences exist.

    Tim
    I think the other thing you'll find some of is the number of tests being administered also. Testing going on now in NY is finding a fairly decent percentage of people being tested for antibodies had Covid-19 and never sought treatment. I suspect some of those who embrace the "Live Free or Die" motto may get tested.
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  6. #51
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    NH is discussing the roll out for restaurants, when they pull the trigger, will be initially be outdoor seating only, 6' minimum space between tables, accessible sanitation stations and group size less than 10 with employee temperature checks prior to start of shift. Next step is interior seating with same spacing requirements.

    They have not really got into safe restrooms. The states approach to date is shut down the permanent facilities and switch to porta potties.

    I personally am going to stay away from interior seating for awhile unless the facility does not have AC. There are some observations that aerosol size droplets are being spread from a carrier for longer distances by AC units. If makes sense if the carrier is located near the units return air section. Large HVAC systems for many healthcare facilities and some large public facilities like public transportation were upgraded years ago to include UVC sources in the ductwork to cut down on potential Tuberculosis and other airborne pathogen transmission but its highly unlikely small restaurant systems will have a UVC system and even if they did, the tubes are probably not maintained. The typical window unit or the more modern minisplits definitely do not have this capability (I think an entrepreneur could probably make a buck adding a retrofit UVC section on a typical minisplit and if they could get them into rapid production) With the right length tube, a ballast, cardboard and duct tape I could rig up a serviceable unit. Of course UVC tubes are probably not stocked in abundance so demand would rapidly strip supply.

    Looks like a new thread to start. Safe Places to eat in the Whites. Tailgating is looking better and better to me.
    Last edited by peakbagger; 04-24-2020 at 01:05 PM.

  7. #52
    Senior Member TJsName's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by peakbagger View Post
    NH is discussing the roll out for restaurants, when they pull the trigger, will be initially be outdoor seating only, 6' minimum space between tables, accessible sanitation stations and group size less than 10 with employee temperature checks prior to start of shift. Next step is interior seating with same spacing requirements.

    They have not really got into safe restrooms. The states approach to date is shut down the permanent facilities and switch to porta potties.

    I personally am going to stay away from interior seating for awhile unless the facility does not have AC. There are some observations that aerosol size droplets are being spread from a carrier for longer distances by AC units. If makes sense if the carrier is located near the units return air section. Large HVAC systems for many healthcare facilities and some large public facilities like public transportation were upgraded years ago to include UVC sources in the ductwork to cut down on potential Tuberculosis and other airborne pathogen transmission but its highly unlikely small restaurant systems will have a UVC system and even if they did, the tubes are probably not maintained. The typical window unit or the more modern minisplits definitely do not have this capability (I think an entrepreneur could probably make a buck adding a retrofit UVC section on a typical minisplit and if they could get them into rapid production) With the right length tube, a ballast, cardboard and duct tape I could rig up a serviceable unit. Of course UVC tubes are probably not stocked in abundance so demand would rapidly strip supply.

    Looks like a new thread to start. Safe Places to eat in the Whites. Tailgating is looking better and better to me.
    If HVAC can spread it, can't the wind as well? What about having fans outside? With a 1 mph breeze, it takes under 5 seconds to travel 6'. And sure, UV light might kill it, but what about at night? We established early on in this that if places are open, a lot of people will go because if it wasn't safe - why would it be open?

    Personally, it'll take a lot of evidence to persuade me that things are safe. This shouldn't be a political issue, but sadly it's turning into one as beliefs are starting to overrule reason. The cynic in me if fine with it, because unlike climate change, we don't have to wait very long for evidence of who is right and wrong. Very satisfying to say I told you so, especially at a funeral being held over Zoom. (Now that's how you do sarcasm.)
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  8. #53
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    UVC is a specific narrow band of UV produced by specialized fluorescent tubes or LEDs, The commercial UVC units are just a rack of tubes mounted across a cross section of a duct so that all the air being discharged from the duct has gone past the tubes at a certain concentration. Generally an AC unit is not cooling all the time, the airflow is generally recirculated with possibly some outdoor air introduced but most systems just cycle the indoor air around and around. In the outdoors there is no re circulation, the assumption is the wind is bringing in fresh air diluting the aerosols. The concentration of UVC in these units are far higher then one would get in sunlight. The units have to be interlocked so that if the tubes need to be accessed the sources turn off. Skin burns and eye damage can occur if exposed. Anyone who has used a Steripen water treatment is using UVC to kill pathogens in the water to be treated. Its also used for larger water treatment systems but has its limitations as the water filters out the UVC. Sunlight does not do it unless someone relives an old Star Trek Episode and flies into the sun to kill it.

    Things will never be absolutely safe unless the virus mutates its way out of existence, some small portion of the population with compromised immune systems will have to stay locked up until a vaccine is worked out and herd immunity has developed. Even then like the flu, some portion of the population will die every year even with a vaccine and approved treatments. At some point impacts to society during this lock down will exceed the risks with trying to reopen society.

  9. #54
    Senior Member DayTrip's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hikerbrian View Post
    What I'd love to know is, Who is getting the virus RIGHT NOW? MA still has 1500 new cases/day. Who are these people? Essential workers? Healthcare workers? Family of previously infected individuals? What is the correlation between stringency of social distancing and probability of infection?
    I can't speak for everywhere but in my area of NE CT it is still quite common to see people out in public places without masks or gloves in areas with people (such as gas stations, grocery stores, etc). Yesterday I got gas at the Cumberland Farms closest to my house and nobody had a face mask on and I only saw one person using gloves. I didn't go inside but a steady stream of people went in and out with no PPE. An EMT driver actually went briefly inside and came out with no PPE at any point. Despite all the fear and warnings I think a lot of people still think this is being blown out of proportion. Add that mind set to a densely populated area and I could see why cases are still growing.

    If I'm not mistaken MA is also doing a lot more testing than other states in New England so they may just be doing a better job of accurately capturing cases.
    NH 48 4k: 48/48; NH W48k: 48/48; ME 4k: 2/14; VT 4k: 1/5; ADK 46: 6/46; Cat 3.5k 10/35

  10. #55
    Moderator bikehikeskifish's Avatar
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    It will be interesting to see, once a cheap, accurate and fast test is available, how many had it and never really knew. I flew on business to Los Angeles around Valentine's Day, and my boss and I both picked up a cold of sorts from a colleague out there. Took me 3-4 weeks to kick it. It was never really bad enough to slow me down. I have been wondering now since mid March if I actually had the virus...

    Tim
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  11. #56
    Senior Member TCD's Avatar
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    Don't know if this picture will show up. This is Massachusetts COVID19 deaths as of a couple days ago. Obviously the emphasis needs to be on protecting the elderly.

    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	Mass COVID19 deaths.jpg 
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  12. #57
    Senior Member sierra's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TCD View Post
    Don't know if this picture will show up. This is Massachusetts COVID19 deaths as of a couple days ago. Obviously the emphasis needs to be on protecting the elderly.

    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	Mass COVID19 deaths.jpg 
Views:	103 
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ID:	6389
    Holy Cow that is an amazing graph. I really feel for the elderly in Commercial homes, basically sitting ducks.

  13. #58
    Senior Member TJsName's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TCD View Post
    Don't know if this picture will show up. This is Massachusetts COVID19 deaths as of a couple days ago. Obviously the emphasis needs to be on protecting the elderly.

    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	Mass COVID19 deaths.jpg 
Views:	103 
Size:	89.9 KB 
ID:	6389
    Yeah, the data coming out of nursing homes/assisted living and the like is really depressing. More than half of the reported deaths in MA are related to those facilities.

    When I was young, my dad's father was suffering from Alzheimer's and we would go over visit him a couple days a week at the nursing home. I'm sure there were many families doing the same thing was their loved ones nowadays. Tragic
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  14. #59
    Senior Member DayTrip's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TJsName View Post
    Yeah, the data coming out of nursing homes/assisted living and the like is really depressing. More than half of the reported deaths in MA are related to those facilities.

    When I was young, my dad's father was suffering from Alzheimer's and we would go over visit him a couple days a week at the nursing home. I'm sure there were many families doing the same thing was their loved ones nowadays. Tragic
    The worst part is these people are not being allowed to really visit. They're not even allowed in the building. There has been more than a few heart wrenching stories on the news of people dying alone in isolation because loved ones were prevented access. Not sure how that is legally possible. It probably varies from state to state too I guess. You'd think you could sign a release of liability or something. It's hard to imagine a scenario where I'd let my wife die like that and not be there holding her hand regardless of my health status.
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  15. #60
    Senior Member TCD's Avatar
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    Yes the isolation is a bit sad, but it's the best way to protect that age group.

    Tidbit: In Florida, the state mandated that virus positive patients be kept away from nursing homes and senior centers. In NY, conversely, the state mandated that nursing homes must accept virus positive patients. You can look up the difference in deaths between the two states.

    Nursing homes could do a lot more to promote video visits, such as via Zoom. It would be really easy to do that in the nursing home environment. Sure, the families could do that, but I think it would be good for the institutions to conduct outreach, volunteer to set it up, etc.. It's not hard, but it's new for many families.

    We were originally scheduled to visit my mother-in-law in Florida, to celebrate her 90th birthday (Today! Hurray for Mom!). Obviously we canceled the trip some time ago; we are having two Zoom parties today (one with neighbors, the second one with family) and are looking forward to it.

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