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Thread: Self Rescue on Downe's Brook

  1. #31
    Senior Member Mike P.'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jfb View Post
    No. Dr. Bernard Dahl 10/23/1999 I'll see what I can dig up that does not promote the Dr. new business It was debated here a lot in 1999.

    Here is a Boston Globe Article, the Dr. has a paragraph on page 5: http://archive.boston.com/bostonglob..._place_to_die/

    It's attached to a thread from the VFTT archives: https://www.vftt.org/forums/showthre...highlight=Dahl It pissed be off in 1999,when the thread came outa nd even now. His website is no longer up though.

    What the Dr. & the more recent Kate Matrosova fatality have in common is that both had made some guided mountaineering trips on other continents. While they were accomplished, on those kind of trips, the guides make all the decisions on whether you summit, descend to another camp or just stay in your tents for the day. The guides don't share how they make the decisions. A nice day on Kilimanjaro or Longs Peak, Hood or Rainier is better than a bad day on Washington. The weekend of Kate's accident was forecasted to be bad for a few days. In Dahl's case, it was raining down at PNVC, the person(s) he was supposed to go with bailed & he still went up. As is usual in late October, a cold rain at PNVC was sleet and freezing rain higher up.
    Last edited by Mike P.; 05-18-2020 at 07:51 PM.
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  2. #32
    Senior Member TJsName's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bikehikeskifish View Post
    http://www.gencourt.state.nh.us/rsa/.../206-26-bb.htm

    Remember - it is not a fine, but reimbursement for costs incurred.

    Tim
    Would you agree it's [a sum imposed as [a penalty inflicted on an offender through judicial procedure] for [an infraction of law]]? I think you know I love semantics.
    Last edited by TJsName; 05-19-2020 at 10:50 AM.
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  3. #33
    Moderator bikehikeskifish's Avatar
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    I do not believe you are issued a violation, so no - it is a bill. Compare with https://www.gencourt.state.nh.us/rsa...265/265-60.htm which specifically uses the word "violation" and "fine" (speeding.) Speeding is a violation, with or without the need for search and rescue or other response. Hiking unprepared is not a violation or you could have "hiking traps" where you get "pulled over" and inspected if you aren't carrying a backpack.

    IANAL,
    Tim
    Bike, Hike, Ski, Sleep. Eat, Fish, Repeat.

  4. #34
    Senior Member TJsName's Avatar
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    I don't believe I stipulated that a violation was issued. There is a sum imposed, and it's imposed because of a violation of a law. Fair?
    Last edited by TJsName; 05-19-2020 at 12:59 PM.
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  5. #35
    Moderator bikehikeskifish's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TJsName View Post
    I don't believe I stipulated thay a violation was issued. There is a sum imposed, and it's imposed because of a violation of a law. Fair?
    No. There is no violation of a law.

    Quote Originally Posted by TJsName View Post
    Would you agree it's [a sum imposed as [a penalty inflicted on an offender through judicial procedure] for [an infraction of law]]? I think you know I love semantics.
    I object to penalty, offender, and infraction. That's like issuing a violation with a fine for hitting a deer while operating a motor vehicle in complete compliance with all known laws. It's happened to me. Deer took a running leap over the guardrail and landed on the front right corner of my car That's like saying "I'm guilty of speeding, and subject to a fine, unless I bought my SpeedSafe card."

    The law exists solely to grant the State Of New Hampshire the authority to collect on expenses incurred for services rendered, along with an insurance-like shared cost model of the HikeSafe card.

    Tim
    Last edited by bikehikeskifish; 05-19-2020 at 01:10 PM.
    Bike, Hike, Ski, Sleep. Eat, Fish, Repeat.

  6. #36
    Senior Member Mike P.'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bikehikeskifish View Post
    That's like saying "I'm guilty of speeding, and subject to a fine, unless I bought my SpeedSafe card."
    I have one of those, so does DayTrip. It's blue and white with black letters and there is one on the front and back of my car. You can get them with trails, or a lighthouse or UConn or Children on it. The people in Massachusetts have them too, theirs come with Red Sox or the Bruins logo & they get to speed and disobey all the other laws too. the NY and NJ ones are a hybrid between the two.
    Have fun & be safe
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  7. #37
    Moderator bikehikeskifish's Avatar
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    Those only allow you to speed in your home state

    Tim
    Bike, Hike, Ski, Sleep. Eat, Fish, Repeat.

  8. #38
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    Gorham NH has/had the rep that any out of state plate was an arrest me for speeding plate
    Last edited by peakbagger; 05-19-2020 at 04:22 PM.

  9. #39
    Senior Member Mike P.'s Avatar
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    You can't speed in "Downtown Gorham" or Downtown Anywhere else. Police are few and far between, tourists are like cockroaches, we're everywhere. NH is interesting because you might be a transplant from MA or a native. The green plates, they're just road cones. The Red Cockroaches from the Pine Tree State, well, they never leave the Pine Tree State.
    Have fun & be safe
    Mike P.

  10. #40
    Senior Member TJsName's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bikehikeskifish View Post
    No. There is no violation of a law.



    I object to penalty, offender, and infraction. That's like issuing a violation with a fine for hitting a deer while operating a motor vehicle in complete compliance with all known laws. It's happened to me. Deer took a running leap over the guardrail and landed on the front right corner of my car That's like saying "I'm guilty of speeding, and subject to a fine, unless I bought my SpeedSafe card."

    The law exists solely to grant the State Of New Hampshire the authority to collect on expenses incurred for services rendered, along with an insurance-like shared cost model of the HikeSafe card.

    Tim
    I think I get what you're saying - that NH doesn't have a law that says 'you cannot be negligent while hiking'. It sure seems like the state us seeking compensatory damages under the statute, which seem like they can only be awarded by someone committing a civil infraction. I'm definitely not a lawyer either, so I'm guessing that for reasons I don't understand, this doesn't fall under tort law.

    Also, how much money could the state raise with a 'speed safe' card? Millions, right?
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  11. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike P. View Post
    No. Dr. Bernard Dahl 10/23/1999 I'll see what I can dig up that does not promote the Dr. new business It was debated here a lot in 1999.

    Here is a Boston Globe Article, the Dr. has a paragraph on page 5: http://archive.boston.com/bostonglob..._place_to_die/

    It's attached to a thread from the VFTT archives: https://www.vftt.org/forums/showthre...highlight=Dahl It pissed be off in 1999,when the thread came outa nd even now. His website is no longer up though.
    Thanks for the link. I must have ignored it back then, or it just blended in with all the other similar rescues.

  12. #42
    Senior Member dug's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by peakbagger View Post
    Gorham NH has/had the rep that any out of state plate was an arrest me for speeding plate
    Ha. Coming down Randolph Hill it drops to 30mph and there was often someone hiding out. For the first 15 years of knowing my wife as we neared the Sortie Durgence Por Camion (pretty much all the French I know) I'd hear "slow down, Gorham cops are a**holes!"

  13. #43
    Moderator bikehikeskifish's Avatar
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    The way in which the HikeSafe program evolved has been discussed to death in these pages (among others) already. The summary that applies here is:

    NH State Legislature has tasked NH F&G with reponsibility for Search and Rescue.
    NH State Legislature has not provided any funding for the same.
    NH F&G is self-funded through fishing, hunting, OHRV registration, boat registration, etc.
    Hikers were taking up a disproportionate amount of the Search and Rescue resources while not having bought anything from F&G.

    Thus, the law was passed which allowed NH F&G to bill, and the State Attorney General to enforce, for actual costs incurred, and to sell HikeSafe cards (same idea as fishing and hunting licenses, without the resource management) with the idea that if

    * you are deemed negligent, you can be billed, unless you've purhased a HikeSafe, or other service, from NH F&G
    * you are wreckless, you can be billed, regardless
    * you are neither negligent nor wreckless, you should not be billed (HikeSafe or not)

    Since I buy an annual fishing license (BikeHikeSkiFish), I do not need to buy the HikeSafe card to be 'covered'.

    IANAL, but I do believe this is an accurate summary.

    Tim
    Bike, Hike, Ski, Sleep. Eat, Fish, Repeat.

  14. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by bikehikeskifish View Post
    The way in which the HikeSafe program evolved has been discussed to death in these pages (among others) already. The summary that applies here is:

    NH State Legislature has tasked NH F&G with reponsibility for Search and Rescue.
    NH State Legislature has not provided any funding for the same.
    NH F&G is self-funded through fishing, hunting, OHRV registration, boat registration, etc.
    Hikers were taking up a disproportionate amount of the Search and Rescue resources while not having bought anything from F&G.

    Thus, the law was passed which allowed NH F&G to bill, and the State Attorney General to enforce, for actual costs incurred, and to sell HikeSafe cards (same idea as fishing and hunting licenses, without the resource management) with the idea that if

    * you are deemed negligent, you can be billed, unless you've purhased a HikeSafe, or other service, from NH F&G
    * you are wreckless, you can be billed, regardless
    * you are neither negligent nor wreckless, you should not be billed (HikeSafe or not)

    Since I buy an annual fishing license (BikeHikeSkiFish), I do not need to buy the HikeSafe card to be 'covered'.

    IANAL, but I do believe this is an accurate summary.

    Tim
    That's an accurate summary as far as I can tell. One other thing to mention is that you don't have to be a safe hiker to buy a HikeSafe card.

  15. #45
    Senior Member Grey J's Avatar
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    Just to be a jerk, I have to say that if even if you are deemed "wreckless" you should not be billed since you did not cause a wreck. However, if you are deemed "reckless" that is another matter!
    Incidentally, even though I only spend one week a year in NH, I buy a Hike Safe Card to support F&G's mission as much as to protect myself.
    "I am a pilgrim and a stranger"

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