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Thread: Ice Gulch Randolph Tuesday Rescue

  1. #16
    Senior Member jniehof's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DayTrip View Post
    My HikeSafe money is going to a NH slush fund somewhere for general use, not the paycheck of the guy who has to risk his life, ruin his free time, etc to come and get me.
    It goes into the SAR fund which funds equipment, training, etc. I don't know if the OT budget for the COs comes out of that or not.

    This case aside (which I'm not going to evaluate), I personally have no objection to getting the call before things have hit the point of completely tapped out. If somebody's broken a leg around noon and figures they can drag themselves out, I'd rather get there at 2pm and have a straightforward carry with a patient who can help out a bit (crawl in to the litter, etc.) than have them wear themselves out struggling only to call at 8pm and now we've got a night carry with a patient that's tapped out. Always points for grit and self-reliance, but if you're pretty sure you won't be able to get out under your own power, make the call, communicate the situation, and the response can be scaled appropriately.

  2. #17
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    I've learned not to climb up something i can't climb down. I'll agree that some people have not yet learned that. In their cases, I see nothing wrong with them calling for help before they try to descend and become injured because they can't descend safely.

  3. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by sierra View Post
    ...........never once even looked at my phone.
    My guess is that it was taking all the energy/focus you could muster and applying it to your present need instead of wasting it on your phone. I know the feeling.

    The victim did the right thing as I'm sure the incident commander once aware of their equipment, ability and psychological state. At that point best for everyone to just have the hiker stay put and the rescuer to just pull them out before it all gets worse. Everyone can agree that what the heck are these people doing in the woods without such a basic as a couple of flashlights.

    I worked for many years at a hiker visitor contact station and it was the same wothless debate with unaware hikers just before sunset every day, to the tune of tens, dozens, and to hundreds every year. 'Hi, are you here to hike. Yes, to the summit. There is not enough daylight to make it to the summit and back before dark, do you have the equipment and ability to hike in the dark? No, but I have my cell phone'. To me what the heck was that supposed to mean, it makes no sense.
    Last edited by Andrew; 11-15-2020 at 10:34 AM. Reason: add quotation mark

  4. #19
    Senior Member DayTrip's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jniehof View Post
    It goes into the SAR fund which funds equipment, training, etc. I don't know if the OT budget for the COs comes out of that or not.

    This case aside (which I'm not going to evaluate), I personally have no objection to getting the call before things have hit the point of completely tapped out. If somebody's broken a leg around noon and figures they can drag themselves out, I'd rather get there at 2pm and have a straightforward carry with a patient who can help out a bit (crawl in to the litter, etc.) than have them wear themselves out struggling only to call at 8pm and now we've got a night carry with a patient that's tapped out. Always points for grit and self-reliance, but if you're pretty sure you won't be able to get out under your own power, make the call, communicate the situation, and the response can be scaled appropriately.
    I get what you're saying. My point was just that, at least to me, there is a more direct correlation with the money I spend on something like AAA versus SAR. I may never need a rescue but my Hike Safe card funds still contribute to a general fund, group or whatever that others benefit from. Again to me at least the Hike Safe card feels more like a donation to an organization to help their funding more than a direct payment for services for my specific use. Like I said, I don't think AAA is the best example here. Anyway....

    And to other's points, I would generally change my own flat tire too and at least until recently didn't have AAA (I drive 40,000-45,000 miles a year now so the odds of finding myself in a bad situation are much higher). Much like a rescue, if I got in a situation I couldn't handle and didn't have AAA, I'll call the police or a towing company or whatever and accept the consequences (i.e. huge towing fees, long wait to get service, etc) because that was the choice I made.

    I also get your point about a guy calling at 12PM versus 8PM being easier but I think that falls back to the 100% sure I need help decision I referenced. That unfortunately is a varied choice based on the individual and his/her ability to realistically appraise their situation, abilities, pride, etc. I'd like to think most people who break their leg at 12PM would have the sense to accept that they most likely can't self rescue and would think of the ramifications to SAR by waiting until dark, etc. and make an appropriate decision. They would hopefully know this is that "100% sure moment" and react accordingly versus pressing on defiantly in the face of the obvious. But that won't always be the case.
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  5. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by jniehof View Post
    It goes into the SAR fund which funds equipment, training, etc. I don't know if the OT budget for the COs comes out of that or not.

    This case aside (which I'm not going to evaluate), I personally have no objection to getting the call before things have hit the point of completely tapped out. If somebody's broken a leg around noon and figures they can drag themselves out, I'd rather get there at 2pm and have a straightforward carry with a patient who can help out a bit (crawl in to the litter, etc.) than have them wear themselves out struggling only to call at 8pm and now we've got a night carry with a patient that's tapped out. Always points for grit and self-reliance, but if you're pretty sure you won't be able to get out under your own power, make the call, communicate the situation, and the response can be scaled appropriately.
    I agree. Until there is a foolproof system that prevents unskilled or prepared hikers from getting in over their heads, what is the alternative? Let them die? I can totally get someone not knowing what they are supposed to do after getting themselves in what they consider a serious situation, and fearing for the approaching nightfall. It absolutely doesn't matter that they shouldn't have put themselves in this situation in the first place (although bad things happen to experienced hikers as well), they need to be rescued. I get it totally that it is a pain in the ass for the rescuers and their families, and puts them at possible risk as well, but again, what's the alternative? Most household fires are caused by carelessness, should firefighters just let the house burn? Most car accidents are caused by horrible mistakes on the drivers part, should EMS stay away? The more experienced here can pound their chests and say they would never let that happen to them, but the dude making the call isn't you.
    Last edited by rbi99; 11-18-2020 at 10:10 AM.

  6. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by rbi99 View Post
    I agree. Until there is a foolproof system that prevents unskilled or prepared hikers from getting in over their heads, what is the alternative? Let them die? I can totally get someone not knowing what they are supposed to do after getting themselves in what they consider a serious situation, and fearing for the approaching nightfall. It absolutely doesn't matter that they shouldn't have put themselves in this situation in the first place (although bad things happen to experienced hikers as well), they need to be rescued. I get it totally that it is a pain in the ass for the rescuers and their families, and puts them at possible risk as well, but again, what's the alternative? Most household fires are caused by carelessness, should firefighters just let the house burn? Most car accidents are caused by horrible mistakes on the drivers part, should EMS stay away? The more experienced here can pound their chests and say they would never let that happen to them, but the dude making the call isn't you.
    I agree 100%. And not as an alternative but as an implementation detail I would have dedicated professional rescue people who have the rescue mission as their primary responsibility (as is done in most other countries). Not an "also" task for Forest Service or F&G people or volunteers. Additionally every rescue would be charged for and most people would have insurance - same as an ambulance response. Of course that might lead to some injuries in these parts as there would be falls off of high horses if the usual suspects couldn't pontificate with their "I hope they get charged".

  7. #22
    Senior Member sierra's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OldEric View Post
    I agree 100%. And not as an alternative but as an implementation detail I would have dedicated professional rescue people who have the rescue mission as their primary responsibility (as is done in most other countries). Not an "also" task for Forest Service or F&G people or volunteers. Additionally every rescue would be charged for and most people would have insurance - same as an ambulance response. Of course that might lead to some injuries in these parts as there would be falls off of high horses if the usual suspects couldn't pontificate with their "I hope they get charged".
    There is no way, the state of NH is going to pay a rescue team to sit around and wait for the occasional rescue. I do agree that all rescues should be charged, I never understood the free ride of such a valuable service. A far as the high horse goes, I wear the appropriate padding.

  8. #23
    Senior Member ChrisB's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sierra View Post
    There is no way, the state of NH is going to pay a rescue team to sit around and wait for the occasional rescue. I do agree that all rescues should be charged, I never understood the free ride of such a valuable service.
    I think you will find a very different point of view held by the many unpaid SAR volunteers who regularly work rescues in the Whites.

    In answer to the question "Why go?" their common response is: "Because it could be me out there."

    This empathetic and caring response is documented by Sandy Stott in his recent book: Critical Hours -- Search and Rescue in the White Mountains.

    If you have an interest in SAR and rescues (and who doesn't on this board, I urge you to read this book. It provides an historical context for SAR, discusses some high-profile rescues, explains the evolution of current SAR, supplies insight into the groups and individuals (paid and unpaid) that constitute today's SAR network, discusses the argument of charging for services, and more.

    I got my copy at Mountain Wanderer and learned a lot from reading it.
    Last edited by ChrisB; 11-19-2020 at 09:58 AM.
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  9. #24
    Senior Member TEO's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sierra View Post
    There is no way, the state of NH is going to pay a rescue team to sit around and wait for the occasional rescue. I do agree that all rescues should be charged, I never understood the free ride of such a valuable service. A far as the high horse goes, I wear the appropriate padding.
    Excuse me while we process your credit card . . . we're sorry, sir, your credit card has been declined, we won't be able to help you today. Thanks for calling and have a nice day!

    It's the hypocrisy of many NH residents and the State's charging for resuces why I try to spend as little money in the state when I visit.

  10. #25
    Senior Member sierra's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ChrisB View Post
    I think you will find a very different point of view held by the many unpaid SAR volunteers who regularly work rescues in the Whites.

    In answer to the question "Why go?" their common response is: "Because it could be me out there."

    This empathetic and caring response is documented by Sandy Stott in his recent book: Critical Hours -- Search and Rescue in the White Mountains.

    If you have an interest in SAR and rescues (and who doesn't on this board, I urge you to read this book. It provides an historical context for SAR, discusses some high-profile rescues, explains the evolution of current SAR, supplies insight into the groups and individuals (paid and unpaid) that constitute today's SAR network, discusses the argument of charging for services, and more.

    I got my copy at Mountain Wanderer and learned a lot from reading it.
    I'm not sure what you mean by your response? I'm just saying there is not going to be paid teams anytime soon by the state of NH, especially when there are people doing it for free. As far as the volunteers wishing they were paid, (which what I'm assuming you meant) I don't blame them for that, but nobody is forcing them to do it for free.

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    [QUOTE=sierra;456334]There is no way, the state of NH is going to pay a rescue team to sit around and wait for the occasional rescue. /QUOTE]

    Like fireman? But ideally I wouldn't want public employees doing it. Privatize it.

  12. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by OldEric View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by sierra View Post
    There is no way, the state of NH is going to pay a rescue team to sit around and wait for the occasional rescue.
    Like fireman? But ideally I wouldn't want public employees doing it. Privatize it.
    The majority of fire fighters in this country are volunteer (65%). In NH that percentage is even higher (70-80%).

  13. #28
    Senior Member skiguy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TEO View Post
    Excuse me while we process your credit card . . . we're sorry, sir, your credit card has been declined, we won't be able to help you today. Thanks for calling and have a nice day!

    It's the hypocrisy of many NH residents and the State's charging for resuces why I try to spend as little money in the state when I visit.
    I've said it before and would be glad to say it again. The attitude that you are coming to our beautiful State of New Hampshire from another State, spending your money here and thinking your doing us a big favor is in my opinion a figment of one's imagination. There is a long line behind you to get in. One can choose to spend their money where they want but if you land up staying at home or going elsewhere other than NH to recreate we as NH residents are not loosing any sleep over it. New Hampshire residents believe it or not do leave the State of NH, go elsewhere and spend money in other States like Vermont. If I go hike Mansfield or any other place outside NH, break my leg and need to be rescued I don't expect anyone other than myself to be responsible for the cost. No hypocrisies here and I actually said that without even leaving the ground and having to climb up on a horse.
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  14. #29
    Senior Member Salty's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TEO View Post
    It's the hypocrisy of many NH residents and the State's charging for resuces why I try to spend as little money in the state when I visit.
    Before I say anything, please explain to this NH Native exactly what hypocrisy to which you refer.

  15. #30
    Senior Member sierra's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Salty View Post
    Before I say anything, please explain to this NH Native exactly what hypocrisy to which you refer.
    I could be wrong, but it sounds like he thinks he should not be charged, because he spends money on his trips.

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