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Thread: Redlining racist?

  1. #76
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    Quote Originally Posted by TEO View Post
    Oh! no, the hiking community, being mostly white, is racist, but not because of this.
    OK, then as a white member of the hiking community, I'm called a racist. I can live with that. I'll continue to work on my lack of sensitivity issue.

  2. #77
    Senior Member ChrisB's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Puma concolor View Post
    Only racists climb Mount Washington or go to that state or that city. The evidence is overwhelming.

    Also, the “Presidential Range.” Don’t even get me started.

    And what’s up with the big push to get Tecumseh taken off the 48 list???
    Question:

    Did you climb Denali or McKinley? Did you hike Baxter Peak or Kathadin?

    Again I ask, What's the big deal with a name change if it addresses an historical wrong?

    Our history is littered with the abuse of non-whites at the hands of the white majority. I believe we are now facing a reckoning as a nation. As part of that it's necessary to acknowledge that some of our heroes and forefathers were not as god-like as we've been taught.

    There is a raft of correspondence between Jefferson and Adams discussing the irony of the "All men are created equal" quote in the Declaration. Adams points out that the "men" Jefferson is referring to were white men only. How could he do this? By assuming that people of color were something less.... than white men. To their credit Jefferson and Adams remained friends throughout their lives, with Adams playing the role of provocateur to Jefferson’s writings and ideas. I guess it's no coincidence they stand near each other in the northern Presis.

    In its way, this thread is a continuation of their dialog begun 250 years ago.
    Last edited by ChrisB; 03-05-2021 at 04:48 PM.
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    I used to have to give a safety talk to school groups of kids of all age ranges before letting them loose on mountain trails. One busload of 8-10 year old's I thought I was a superstar with my witty references and theatrical antics to get important points across. This one girl was looking at me in extreme anger and only got more upset as I spoke. As the bus was unloading she walked right up to me and jabbed her finger angrily at me and blurted out "You know there are girls on this bus and not just guys." Well I was referring to the collective as "You guy's" in what I thought was a generic "people/persons" term. I used other terms from then on and have lost nothing for doing so.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ChrisB View Post
    Question:

    Did you climb Denali or McKinley? Did you hike Baxter Peak or Kathadin?
    I agree with this sentiment and most of the previous ones you have posted in this thread. I think it has served a good purpose in making more people aware of a number of things. How they react and possibly rationalize only reflects on them and not the facts. That said renaming things - essentially rewriting history 1984 style - is a slippery slope. This thread is but a tempest in a teacup compared to what's been going on with names in the climbing world for the last 6 months. One of the upstream posts mentioned the Gunks route "Bitchy Virgin" - I guess its clear why they might be offensive but pretty minor. Do people equally see why they might be offended by the route "Boston" - how many have a clue of the origin?

    I've done a few FA's (first ascents) and one I named "The Porno Book" (A "book" is an inside corner in climbing terms) and a certain prude CT guidebook author (who went on to notariaty for other reasons) renamed it "The Good Book" in his guidebook. C'est La Vie.

    But I always have and always will climb "Shockey's" and not "The Ceiling".

  5. #80
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    Quote Originally Posted by OldEric View Post
    How they react and possibly rationalize only reflects on them and not the facts.
    This is true to a point. Presentation also counts. If your style is more in-your-face, or more confrontational, or more preachy, you're going to get more of the knee-jerk reaction. If your style is more inclusive ("we") or example-based, it is more thought-provoking and less knee-jerking.

    If you asked a question, or made some point, and got an answer, or a response, and then reacted dismissively, reactions will tend towards knee-jerking. If you re-ask or re-make the point, you really can't expect anyone to play along, unless they are doing so for sport.

    I base these observations on both my reactions and watching all your reactions, along with the (as you might imagine) personal messaging, and reporting of posts, that I and the other moderators are keeping tabs on. Rather than closing it when it gets close to going off the rails, I have resorted to the personal messages and having people edit their posts.

    You may disagree with me and that's fine, but this is what I'm seeing and hearing from my seat.

    Tim
    Last edited by bikehikeskifish; 03-05-2021 at 03:26 PM.
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  6. #81
    Senior Member skiguy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TEO View Post
    Oh! no, the hiking community, being mostly white, is racist, but not because of this. Racism is not just using the N-word or consciously believing that people who have different colored skin from you are inferior. We all have implicit biases and prejudices, including racial prejudices, even those with the best intentions. Racism is these biases combined with power. (This why people of color cannot be racist, by definition. They can and do have prejudices, but they do not have a position of power in our society.)
    With all do respect you can have your own opinion. But I do not agree with this statement and actually find it to be offensive. I will not be pigeon-holed into this line of thinking. There are some of us that have been hiking for a long time and have used it as a conduit for recognizing, educating and improving the quality of life for others outside of one's particular race.
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    Quote Originally Posted by TEO View Post
    Oh! no, the hiking community, being mostly white, is racist, but not because of this. Racism is not just using the N-word or consciously believing that people who have different colored skin from you are inferior. We all have implicit biases and prejudices, including racial prejudices, even those with the best intentions. Racism is these biases combined with power. (This why people of color cannot be racist, by definition. They can and do have prejudices, but they do not have a position of power in our society.)
    Surly that was said in jest......lame........I think most "intelligent" people on this board have a basic understanding of the definition of Racism,bigotry. ...........See a person as an individual not a race.

  8. #83
    Senior Member TEO's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cragway View Post
    Surly that was said in jest......lame........I think most "intelligent" people on this board have a basic understanding of the definition of Racism,bigotry. ...........See a person as an individual not a race.
    Nope, not in jest. I think that most of us who aren't familiar with the of the common, day-to-day experiences of people of color, have no idea what racism looks like. And, because the New England and upstate New York are overwhelmingly homogeneous, we rarely are confronted with our own prejudices.

  9. #84
    Senior Member maineguy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TEO View Post
    Nope, not in jest. I think that most of us who aren't familiar with the of the common, day-to-day experiences of people of color, have no idea what racism looks like. And, because the New England and upstate New York are overwhelmingly homogeneous, we rarely are confronted with our own prejudices.
    Well, many people living in New England haven't always lived in New England. Myself, I have lived in metro NYC, metro LA, metro Chicago, metro San Diego. I also served in a fully integrated Navy as well as spent time at military bases in the South. Preaching to people you don't know about what they don't know about racism is unbelievably presumptuous.
    Last edited by maineguy; 03-05-2021 at 05:12 PM.

  10. #85
    Senior Member ChrisB's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bikehikeskifish View Post
    I base these observations on both my reactions and watching all your reactions, along with the (as you might imagine) personal messaging, and reporting ...
    Tim
    I am genuinely sorry to put you and the other moderators through this Tim. These are difficult conversations to have on this board and as a nation. But also important and necessary. Thanks for your judgement and efforts.

    Hey, Maybe what we need is a good old fashioned rescue to kibitz about!
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  11. #86
    Senior Member TEO's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by maineguy View Post
    Well, not everybody living in New England has always lived in New England. Myself, I have lived in metro NYC, metro LA, metro Chicago, metro San Diego. I also served in a fully integrated Navy.
    True. My older brother is Black. Does that mean I'm free of bias and prejudice? That I'm not racist? Nope. If my parents and siblings can understand that and and not be offended, not see it as a person affront, then I think others can.
    Last edited by TEO; 03-05-2021 at 06:01 PM.

  12. #87
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    Quote Originally Posted by TEO View Post
    Nope, not in jest. I think that most of us who aren't familiar with the of the common, day-to-day experiences of people of color, have no idea what racism looks like. And, because the New England and upstate New York are overwhelmingly homogeneous, we rarely are confronted with our own prejudices.
    I may be looking at this too simplistically, but it seems to me that we are talking about two different things, racism seen as a personal act, and racism as an institution. Most of us have anecdotal experiences of personal acts, and don't believe we conscientiously act in a manner that could be considered racist. I think what TEO is talking about is the systematic racism that exists in education, criminal justice, housing, healthcare, etc.

    I found this helpful in the light of this conversation.

    https://www.nlc.org/article/2020/07/...n-anti-racist/

  13. #88
    Senior Member skiguy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TEO View Post
    True. My older brother is Black. Does that mean I'm free of bias and prejudice? That I'm not racist? Nope. If my parents and siblings can understand that and and not be offended, not see it as a person affront, then I think others ca
    Your only trying to facilitate your own beliefs and agenda and expecting others to totally agree. Is that not a prejudice in itself? I’m not buying it. To make assumptions of others beliefs or expecting them to align them with yours while pontificating from behind a computer screen is just ignorant at best. Your personal paradigm is not applicable to me. Stop making assumptions about others that you don't know.
    "I'm getting up and going to work everyday and I am stoked. That does not suck!"__Shane McConkey

  14. #89
    Senior Member TEO's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skiguy View Post
    Your only trying to facilitate your own beliefs and agenda and expecting others to totally agree. Is that not a prejudice in itself? I’m not buying it. To make assumptions of others beliefs or expecting them to align them with yours while pontificating from behind a computer screen is just ignorant at best. Your personal paradigm is not applicable to me. Stop making assumptions about others that you don't know.
    I would encourage you to take the tests here: https://implicit.harvard.edu/implici...touchtest.html. Try to answer the test questions as quickly as possible.

    Keep in mind, to recognize our own prejudices is not saying that we are a bad people.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hachi View Post
    I found this helpful in the light of this conversation.

    https://www.nlc.org/article/2020/07/...n-anti-racist/
    That is an outstanding explanation. Thank you for sharing it!

    P.s. Thank you, moderators, for keeping this important discussion open. I think I've said enough here. If anyone want's to continue the discussion with me, please feel free to PM me.
    Last edited by TEO; 03-05-2021 at 06:36 PM.

  15. #90
    Senior Member Puma concolor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ChrisB View Post
    Question:

    Did you climb Denali or McKinley? Did you hike Baxter Peak or Kathadin?

    Again I ask, What's the big deal with a name change if it addresses an historical wrong?

    Our history is littered with the abuse of non-whites at the hands of the white majority. I believe we are now facing a reckoning as a nation. As part of that it's necessary to acknowledge that some of our heroes and forefathers were not as god-like as we've been taught.
    So ironically/non-ironically, I spent my day today ski touring on the Mount Ascutney summit road ... a mountain whose names traces back to the Abenakis.

    It SEEMS that based on my contributions to this thread thus far that you have placed me in a box which opposes historical recognition of mountain names. Because boxes make argument easier ... or something like that.

    My profile shot atop Denali was obviously taken in June 2015 when the mountain was still officially known as “Mount McKinley” by the USGS. I was among the very last to summit the mountain by its old name with its old elevation. The banner I am holding was made up many months in advance and even caused confusion among family and friends when I told them I’d summited the highest point in North America ... Denali. No, some said, Mount McKinley is the top of North America. And then I’d explain.

    Anyone who knows me closely knows “Dances with Wolves” is my favorite all-time movie and I own Costner’s follow-up documentary 500 Nations. So I’m not hostile towards or ignorant of history.

    So why do I prefer Denali and Katahdin over McKinley and Baxter? It really has very little to do with being woke or politically correct. It’s more of a recognition of the true historical names of those two peaks. The PEOPLE who lived in their shadows for eons specifically created names that refer only to those peaks. Denail is artistic ... the Great One or the High One depending on your translation. That word refers to one and only one thing. There is no ambiguity. Same with Katahdin. McKinley, Baxter and REDLINING can refer to a whole pile of things and cause confusion about word meanings as seen in this thread.

    Now where wokeness enters the world of state highpointing is in South Dakota. And I fully support the changing of the name of Harney Peak (William Harney was an Indian fighting scoundrel) to Black Elk Peak even though there’s really no historical basis for that name.

    My overall point though is that if you look for racism behind every cairn, you’re going to find it. When EVERYTHING becomes racist, then nothing is racist. And that’s not someplace any of us want to be.

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