Redlining racist?

vftt.org

Help Support vftt.org:

This site may earn a commission from merchant affiliate links, including eBay, Amazon, and others.
Status
Not open for further replies.
I don't understand how preventing hikers from using the term redlining will solve any of the problems that racism has caused.

Correct. It won't.

I think it's correct to avoid using terms that evoke memories of actual deep harm. We accept that it would be offensive to refer to a lopsided sports victory as a lynching. This is similar in overtone.

But correct language doesn't stop the economic oppression of actual red-lining.

If we want to confront the economic structures that cause racial oppression, we'll need to ask who sets the policies. But we know the answer to that. Policies track with will of the top 5% - the economic elite who control both parties. IME, the white rural poor understand very well that economic elites are screwing them too, so they correctly understand that core problem isn't racism.

At some point, poor and working people in both parties will understand that they share a common struggle.

@TEO, I almost agreed with post. Better to say that white America is capitalist, not racist. Capitalism can't work with out economic oppression and economic oppression is what drives racism, as well as patriarchy and environmental destruction.

@JFB, total agreement. Talking about words isn't addressing the core issue.
 
Last edited:
But correct language doesn't stop the economic oppression of actual red-lining.
Exactly. Correct language is useless without action. And most of us, myself included, have no idea what the action we could take to afford a real change.
 
Exactly. Correct language is useless without action. And most of us, myself included, have no idea what the action we could take to afford a real change.

Organize. Organize like mad.
 
With apologies to the evil Dr. S.


I do not like redlining and ham
I do not like them, "---" I am

I do not like them when I smoke
I do not like them when they're spoke
Especially when I'm striving to be the most woke

Not in banking, not in housing,
Not in social media mingling
But mostly not when I'm tediously virtue-signalling

I do not like redlining and ham
I do not like them, "---" I am
 
It's interesting that we are talking about respecting the experiences of some other groups that are outside our own, but have ignored the part of the discussion regarding use of lands considered sacred by earlier inhabitants. Many mountains of the world, including Agiocochook, have aboriginal names that mean something like Home of God. Yet, we go ahead and tread on them without thought to what we are doing to what those may continue to mean to those people. Is it just because they are among the least of the complaining groups, or maybe that the "transgression" began so long ago in many cases, that we don't take much of that into consideration (with a few worldwide exclusions)?

Should we exclude those places from our trampling, or do we just say that it's ok because there aren't many people affected, or it has become too accepted? I don't have an answer, but it seemed like a reasonable extension of the discussion regarding the term redlining in this context. Should aboriginal sacred places be removed from lists? Is anyone willing to not hike Mt. Washington or Katahdin to support the sacredness that these places held in the lives of many before this time (and possibly/likely some living today)?

I don't have the answer, and I have ascended some of these peaks, but I thought that it was worth discussion along with the redlining topic.
 
With apologies to the evil Dr. S.


I do not like redlining and ham
I do not like them, "---" I am

I do not like them when I smoke
I do not like them when they're spoke
Especially when I'm striving to be the most woke

Not in banking, not in housing,
Not in social media mingling
But mostly not when I'm tediously virtue-signalling

I do not like redlining and ham
I do not like them, "---" I am

First, it was the foundation that oversees the Dr. Suess Foundation that offered to pull the 6 books. Six of many. The depiction of the African natives was problematic, native headdress, enlarged lips, semi clothed, It was drawn around the same time as Disney's Song of the South.

Schools and the BSA is looking at no longer using Indian names for their council names and school mascots.

In I believe, Oh the Places you will go or Mulberry Street, the Chinese man was drawn in a stereotypical fashion. Dr. Suess lasted much longer than John Wayne did (Whoever is in charge of running El Dorado on Cable TV. The scene where James Caan gets ready to sneak into the back of the saloon and he shows John Wayne how his "disguise" is no longer left in the movie on cable.
 
Oh! no, the hiking community, being mostly white, is racist, but not because of this. Racism is not just using the N-word or consciously believing that people who have different colored skin from you are inferior. We all have implicit biases and prejudices, including racial prejudices, even those with the best intentions. Racism is these biases combined with power. (This why people of color cannot be racist, by definition. They can and do have prejudices, but they do not have a position of power in our society.)
[emphasis added by me]

I have some questions with this line of reasoning. How does one define 'position of power'? For example, the CEO of my company, a man I greatly admire, is a man of African decent, and his skin has more melanin than mine. He has sat on numerous presidential committees and is internationally regarded. If he told me I could no longer work for our company because I am white and he doesn't want any more white people to work for him, is that racist? Can we reasonably argue that this man does not have a position of power in our society? Does Barrack Obama have power? What about Spike Lee? Michael Jordan? Kanye West? How about Sundar Pichai? Or George Takei? Or Yo-Yo Ma? None of them have power in society? Or is it that they do have power, but can't be racist because the group we assign them to doesn't have power?

What about people of 'mixed' race, whatever that means, can they be racist? How do we define race, anyway? And is division of humans into specific races meaningful, predictive, and good for society?

I have a lot of questions, and I ask them in good faith. This is not meant to be rhetorical, even though I imagine one can tell where I stand on that last question.

And PS, I imagine you moderators have been shifting uncomfortably in your chairs as this thread rolls on and were probably happy it has lied dormant for a few days. But if we think this is an important topic, might as well see it through.
 
[emphasis added by me]

I have some questions with this line of reasoning. How does one define 'position of power'? For example, the CEO of my company, a man I greatly admire, is a man of African decent, and his skin has more melanin than mine. He has sat on numerous presidential committees and is internationally regarded. If he told me I could no longer work for our company because I am white and he doesn't want any more white people to work for him, is that racist? Can we reasonably argue that this man does not have a position of power in our society? Does Barrack Obama have power? What about Spike Lee? Michael Jordan? Kanye West? How about Sundar Pichai? Or George Takei? Or Yo-Yo Ma? None of them have power in society? Or is it that they do have power, but can't be racist because the group we assign them to doesn't have power?

What about people of 'mixed' race, whatever that means, can they be racist? How do we define race, anyway? And is division of humans into specific races meaningful, predictive, and good for society?

I have a lot of questions, and I ask them in good faith. This is not meant to be rhetorical, even though I imagine one can tell where I stand on that last question.

And PS, I imagine you moderators have been shifting uncomfortably in your chairs as this thread rolls on and were probably happy it has lied dormant for a few days. But if we think this is an important topic, might as well see it through.

All of those people you mention have been subjected to and still are subjected to racism. It is a hurdle that they have had to overcome and continue to fight against while achieving any individual power they may have.

We no longer have the decision whether or not to divide humans into races. The choice was made hundreds of years ago, and though we may try, it will be a long time, if ever, that we will be able to undo that choice. Skin color is absolutely predictive, in terms of your access to housing, healthcare, employment, education, wealth, voting, treatment by law enforcement, etc. Being "race blind" or "not seeing skin color" only perpetuates a white supremacist system.
 
We no longer have the decision whether or not to divide humans into races. The choice was made hundreds of years ago, and though we may try, it will be a long time, if ever, that we will be able to undo that choice. Skin color is absolutely predictive, in terms of your access to housing, healthcare, employment, education, wealth, voting, treatment by law enforcement, etc. Being "race blind" or "not seeing skin color" only perpetuates a white supremacist system.
attachment.php


..........

circularlogic.jpg
 
Thanks for the response, I appreciate it. But I don't think you answered even a single one of my (gazillion) questions. Except maybe part of my last question: it sounds like you believe dividing people by race has predictive value and is good for society: not doing so 'perpetuates a white supremacist system.' I'll save additional thoughts on that for a moment. What of my other questions (if you feel like answering them)?
 
[emphasis added by me]

I have some questions with this line of reasoning. How does one define 'position of power'? For example, the CEO of my company, a man I greatly admire, is a man of African decent, and his skin has more melanin than mine. He has sat on numerous presidential committees and is internationally regarded. If he told me I could no longer work for our company because I am white and he doesn't want any more white people to work for him, is that racist? Can we reasonably argue that this man does not have a position of power in our society? Does Barrack Obama have power? What about Spike Lee? Michael Jordan? Kanye West? How about Sundar Pichai? Or George Takei? Or Yo-Yo Ma? None of them have power in society? Or is it that they do have power, but can't be racist because the group we assign them to doesn't have power?

What about people of 'mixed' race, whatever that means, can they be racist? How do we define race, anyway? And is division of humans into specific races meaningful, predictive, and good for society?

I have a lot of questions, and I ask them in good faith. This is not meant to be rhetorical, even though I imagine one can tell where I stand on that last question.

And PS, I imagine you moderators have been shifting uncomfortably in your chairs as this thread rolls on and were probably happy it has lied dormant for a few days. But if we think this is an important topic, might as well see it through.

TEO is correct, and I thank him for his answer!

How does one define 'position of power'? For example, the CEO of my company, a man I greatly admire, is a man of African decent, and his skin has more melanin than mine. He has sat on numerous presidential committees and is internationally regarded. If he told me I could no longer work for our company because I am white and he doesn't want any more white people to work for him, is that racist?
1. You are speaking of individuals, whereas racism is systemic and pervasive in all elements of American society. Has been since the founding. There are people of color who break through it, and they are the exceptions to the norm. We are a nation of ~320 million people and yet we can count the black people in power easily.
2. If a corporate leader terminated someone due to their race, and no other reason, that is both racist and illegal.

Can we reasonably argue that this man does not have a position of power in our society? Does Barrack Obama have power? What about Spike Lee? Michael Jordan? Kanye West? How about Sundar Pichai? Or George Takei? Or Yo-Yo Ma? None of them have power in society? Or is it that they do have power, but can't be racist because the group we assign them to doesn't have power?
1. George Takei was interned in a prison camp during World War Two due to his ethnicity. Let's all ponder that for a moment.
2. Of course there are powerful individuals of color in American society, but they are the exceptions, not the norm. There have been exactly nine black senators since 1900. Three Native Americans.
3. I'm sorry, what's your question? Is it that American society has no institutional racism because a man who was interned in a prison camp has a large Twitter following and black entertainers sell records? Barack Obama was replaced by a man who denied the unquestionable fact that he was born in Hawaii.

What about people of 'mixed' race, whatever that means, can they be racist?
1. All Americans see the world in terms of race. Race infuses every element of American society, always, for everyone, whether we realize it or not.

How do we define race, anyway?
My name is Brian Glenn, and anyone who knows that name knows that I have Irish heritage. But I have less Irish heritage than Barack Hussein Obama does. You just listed him as black. Somewhere in that fact lies the answer to your question.

And is division of humans into specific races meaningful, predictive, and good for society?
1. Whether it is good or bad is immaterial if one refuses first to acknowledge the fact that America, we all, consciously or not, divide people by the skin color.

You see, hikerbrian, this is the point: you speak as though individuals are racist or not. It is productive, I believe, to start with the fact that every element of our society is racially infused. It isn't that some people burn with hatred and others do not; it is that all Americans, all the time, sort people by their skin color, and that after four centuries, our institutions are so racially informed that we remain segregated, spatially and socially, to this very day.

Brian
 
TEO is correct, and I thank him for his answer!

How does one define 'position of power'? For example, the CEO of my company, a man I greatly admire, is a man of African decent, and his skin has more melanin than mine. He has sat on numerous presidential committees and is internationally regarded. If he told me I could no longer work for our company because I am white and he doesn't want any more white people to work for him, is that racist?
1. You are speaking of individuals, whereas racism is systemic and pervasive in all elements of American society. Has been since the founding. There are people of color who break through it, and they are the exceptions to the norm. We are a nation of ~320 million people and yet we can count the black people in power easily.
2. If a corporate leader terminated someone due to their race, and no other reason, that is both racist and illegal.

Can we reasonably argue that this man does not have a position of power in our society? Does Barrack Obama have power? What about Spike Lee? Michael Jordan? Kanye West? How about Sundar Pichai? Or George Takei? Or Yo-Yo Ma? None of them have power in society? Or is it that they do have power, but can't be racist because the group we assign them to doesn't have power?
1. George Takei was interned in a prison camp during World War Two due to his ethnicity. Let's all ponder that for a moment.
2. Of course there are powerful individuals of color in American society, but they are the exceptions, not the norm. There have been exactly nine black senators since 1900. Three Native Americans.
3. I'm sorry, what's your question? Is it that American society has no institutional racism because a man who was interned in a prison camp has a large Twitter following and black entertainers sell records? Barack Obama was replaced by a man who denied the unquestionable fact that he was born in Hawaii.

What about people of 'mixed' race, whatever that means, can they be racist?
1. All Americans see the world in terms of race. Race infuses every element of American society, always, for everyone, whether we realize it or not.

How do we define race, anyway?
My name is Brian Glenn, and anyone who knows that name knows that I have Irish heritage. But I have less Irish heritage than Barack Hussein Obama does. You just listed him as black. Somewhere in that fact lies the answer to your question.

And is division of humans into specific races meaningful, predictive, and good for society?
1. Whether it is good or bad is immaterial if one refuses first to acknowledge the fact that America, we all, consciously or not, divide people by the skin color.

You see, hikerbrian, this is the point: you speak as though individuals are racist or not. It is productive, I believe, to start with the fact that every element of our society is racially infused. It isn't that some people burn with hatred and others do not; it is that all Americans, all the time, sort people by their skin color, and that after four centuries, our institutions are so racially informed that we remain segregated, spatially and socially, to this very day.

Brian

This sure sounds like something you would hear in a university classroom nowadays...hmmm:rolleyes:
 
I would invite people to step back from the initial knee-jerk reaction (which I myself shared), and let the idea mellow for a day.
Respectfully Brian, I hope you'll consider taking your own advice: step back from your knee-jerk reaction, let the ideas mellow for a day, and then let's have a civil electronic conversation. I'd ask at that time if you'd please consider re-reading what you wrote above, and then edit your post to eliminate the thoughts you ascribe to me that I simply did not write. In the meantime, I have some confidence that TEO is more than capable of formulating his own arguments, and I'm hopeful he can do so without putting words in my mouth.
 
I assume the 'hmm' was added to make sure it was '14 words'?

LOL You don't exactly have to be Columbo to figure out what my post implies with regards to the post it quoted.
 
Last edited:
For those of you who might've missed the not-so-subtle reference, TJsName just called maineguy a white supremacist.

Funny. Well, back in my college days there were times that I was "three sheets to the wind". ;)
 
Last edited:
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top