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Thread: Dalton Mtn NH - Landowner Request

  1. #16
    Senior Member Puma concolor's Avatar
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    I always find it interesting how aggressively the hiking/outdoors community is willing to defend the property rights of people who think they own mountains. Legally speaking, there is no more low grade victimless “crime” than leaving footprints on the sides of hills when no one else is there to see. Folks post GPS tracks which are then seen on the internet by folks who would have never otherwise been aware. So drama. The Catskill 3500 Club is actively doing free legal work for the “owners” of Doubletop and Graham. Welcome to the 21st century.
    Last edited by Puma concolor; 03-15-2021 at 08:18 PM.

  2. #17
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    IMHO unlike footprints that rapidly fade, GPS tracks are at a minimum electronic graffiti or at worst electronic ax blazing a trail on private land. Perhaps there needs to be a modification of Leave No Trace to include electronic tracks?

  3. #18
    Senior Member CaptCaper's Avatar
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    Gps tracks have nothing to do with it. And no worse then all the books with tell all pages,maps with red lines and internet fourms like VFTT. If it's private it's private. Suck it up. Plenty of places to go that are legal and hassle free. If not enough room to wander and give one that thrill of remoteness in NH move out West.

  4. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by skiguy View Post
    My understanding and maybe peakbagger can confirm in New Hampshire it is called crossing someone's land not trespassing if the land is not posted. Which is entirely legal. The practice goes way back. Kind of a part of that "Live Free or Die" thing. If one has issues with fire arms and or conservation issues because of crossing then posting is about the only defense. Then the whole Current Use thing comes into play not to mention Conservation Trusts. I only understand the basics of those two concepts so I will again leave it to peakbagger as he is way more competent than I on elaborating on that can of worms. Getting directly back on subject and within the incident of discussion this hiker was in violation but to his credit he apologized. Lessons learned. Personally having spent a lot of time in the South growing up and to have been fortunate to have a Grandfather whom owned large tracks of land I was exposed to different morals than what is practiced here in New England when it came to crossing. People always asked before hand to use his land. Most of it was hunting and much of that was for subsistence living. In those days and in that geographic area people helped each other much more. If a kill was made it was always shared with the Landowner. Although it is different times here in New Hampshire it seems crossing is common behavior and it is done by individuals personal will. Unfortunately even though not required by Law checking with the Land Owner before hand is not common practice. I have owned a large tract of land for 25 years which is in Current Use. It is legal to cross without speaking with me and I do receive a large Tax Break. People do hunt on this land also. Again although not required by law it is unfortunate during the time I have owned this land I have only had one person approach me to ask about crossing. No doubt in this area crossing is part of local culture but it is unfortunate folks do not show more respect as that lack of behavior leads to more and more posting and everyone looses.
    I do believe the spirit of freedom to roam and pass over others land (enabled by law) here in northern New England is a wonderful thing, and as skiguy describes is very different than in other parts of the country. I don't want to post my land but having a fine network of hiking trails for our own use, I often think about the impact that might occur if more neighbors stumble onto them. Heck I put a lot of blood sweat and tears into creating them, and that was so I would not have to decide to go for a ski in the few perfect condition days without dealing with a posthole track from someone I don't even know. I'm just saying that when you are on others land, you don't necessarily know what the owners relationship to their land is, or what is going on there for them, and how sensitive they may be to the impact of others use.
    Now if I owned all the land in a neighborhood with the only available patch of woods for the community to utilize, I would consider this in how I manage my land and provide access to it.

  5. #20
    Senior Member Puma concolor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CaptCaper View Post
    Gps tracks have nothing to do with it. And no worse then all the books with tell all pages,maps with red lines and internet fourms like VFTT. If it's private it's private. Suck it up. Plenty of places to go that are legal and hassle free. If not enough room to wander and give one that thrill of remoteness in NH move out West.
    Private property issues out west as well. Culebra for example ...

    https://www.aspentimes.com/sports/co...n-the-country/

    Only list I ever tackled where private property concerns were a real thing was the US State Highpoints, several of which are on private property. Over the years, the Highpointers Club has done an absolutely fantastic job in advocating for its members and securing continued access to all 50 peaks. Three have even transferred from private to public ownership since I visited them thanks in part to the tireless efforts of the Club ... Jerimoth Hill, RI being one of them to go along with Kentucky and Iowa.

    Overall, it’s a fine line between strongly lobbying for the right to roam and not being adversarial with landowners. Every privately owned patch of land on a mountainside or mountain peak has its own unique set of issues and needs to be considered on its own particular merits. Hikers should only call out other hikers when one threatens to ruin it for all and that’s kind of what peakbagger is doing here I think. Conversely, if any hiker decides that an already restricted or banned privately-owned mountain is a place that he/she is absolutely compelled to visit and is willing to accept the potential consequences of getting caught, then that is his/her decision as a private citizen.
    Last edited by Puma concolor; 03-16-2021 at 10:54 AM.

  6. #21
    Senior Member Barkingcat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JoshandBaron View Post
    By definition, class vi roads are public ways.

    http://www.gencourt.state.nh.us/rsa/...1/231-21-a.htm

    I. All such highways shall be deemed subject to gates and bars; provided, however, that any gates or bars maintained by private land owners shall be erected so as not to prevent or interfere with public use of the highway, and shall be capable of being opened and reclosed by highway users.
    Correct. But while a Class VI road in NH is considered a public way, and access to the road must be allowed, the land on either side of the Class VI road can be posted.

  7. #22
    Senior Member TEO's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Puma concolor View Post
    I always find it interesting how aggressively the hiking/outdoors community is willing to defend the property rights of people who think they own mountains. Legally speaking, there is no more low grade victimless “crime” than leaving footprints on the sides of hills when no one else is there to see.
    I couldn't agree more.

  8. #23
    Senior Member Scubahhh's Avatar
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    I've been in touch with Jim Dannis and can tell you he's an absolutely kind and gracious man. I look forward to not reporting on my adventures in Dalton this summer!
    Add life to your years!

  9. #24
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    Just another example of some folks deciding which laws are ok to break. Property rights are what they are whether we like it or not.

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