GAIA Acquired by Outside Magazine Organization

I still use a handheld GPS in winter (with Energizer Ultimate Lithium batteries) because I can use buttons with thick gloves on. Otherwise, Gaia on my phone is much easier and more flexible.

Not sure why I need to add my .02 here, except I am delaying shoveling....

Phones - Won't take immersion of flipping into cold water and if waterproof phones haven't improved since my son's, then saltwater doesn't count (yes 70% of the planet).

While the adaptors to cell applications make good points, as Nessmuck mentioned, if people in SAR occupations know how to use the heavy-duty equipment and don't need it in a pocket that's not an advantage. My phone, a Samsung 5 may be older than most here and works fine for what I want. (email, some pics and text). For trips in the Allagash, the phone gets a zip-loc bag. For the Allagash, navigation is not an issue, downhill not facing shore, not paddling against the current, paper map with campsites in zp-loc is fine)

There are some places that I want something I can beat the tar out of, physically and in weather or conditions I don't want to be in, and it still will work, it's certainly not a cellphone.

If wide open spaces in AK, NW Canada, real remote places (None east of the Mississippi and south of the St. Lawrence) phones and chargers for an extended time is harder than a device that takes standard AA or similar batteries. (As the luddite here, I just got a charger for Christmas and while it's neat, it's a slow charge though.) The GPS works all over the world, not just all over the ADK's and Maine. Actually, in the Allagash you have to pay for Canadian cell service even though we are in the US. How far offshore before my cell doesn't work?

I realize I have to go to some new places as I don't even bother with a map 90% of the time, of the other 10% I pack it and never look at it. Why would I look at my phone for navigation?

The other day my wife and I were discussing sleep patterns, mine suck, and she mentioned getting me a watch. I've been any type of watch free for a couple of years now as I've beaten a TAG Heuer and a few Timex (Iron-man Expedition?) watches designed for the outdoors all up. From walking on narrow trails and hitting rocks and trees with it to not walking in the center of hallways, or past tables and counters at home and smashing them. (One probably saved me from a bruise once) If they make something out of Titanium that's 1/2 a pound, maybe I won't break that it. (Unbreakable, indestructible? LOL challenge accepted)

I hope I am not being perceived as unfair to Nessmuk - merely presenting a counter argument. If it works for him, that is great. It used to work for me, but does not any longer. There will always be specialized use cases, and collectors. I personally hate seeing my CD collection sit there collecting dust, but the entirety of it and a millions times more are available on my phone at my whim. There are most assuredly collectors with hundreds if not thousands of vinyl albums as well... but try and buy a record player. Heck my 2015 Subaru doesn't even have a CD player any more.

My phone IS a GPS... with a better display and user interface and real time updates and real time connectivity (most of the time) and better battery life and no disposable batteries and no hassle recharging. Even if it was only a GPS, I'd never use the Garmin handheld again.

To be completely transparent, let me (re) state that I unequivocably prefer the Garmin cycling computer/gps to the phone (for recording / navigating cycling activities), and I could see the value in the same for a Garmin watch - each of which pairs with the phone for real time connectivity and updates. I am also (as pointed out earlier) not a fan of the operation of the phone with heavy gloves on or in moist (condensation) environments. It has been known to mistake my sweaty back or pocket for my fingers and text or dial my wife... and maybe one or two others in my favorites. I still have not found a 100% acceptable combination of phone and phone case for my sweaty activities and for daily/office use (I probably should have two cases).

Tim

Mike P. said:

Not sure why I need to add my .02 here, except I am delaying shoveling....

Phones - Won't take immersion of flipping into cold water and if waterproof phones haven't improved since my son's, then saltwater doesn't count (yes 70% of the planet).


There are some places that I want something I can beat the tar out of, physically and in weather or conditions I don't want to be in, and it still will work, it's certainly not a cellphone.

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Plenty of phone cases out there from LifeProof, Otter and others that are waterproof and pretty hard core from a damage point of view. And most phones now have gorilla glass and other comparable heavy duty glass. Your phone isn't nearly as flimsy as you think it is.

And from someone who used to buy and recharge AA and AAA batteries for all his stuff, the rechargeable lithium ion batteries in most modern stuff hold a charge way longer and recharge way easier than your old fashioned Duracell clunkers. And for a modest weight (far less than the weight of a bunch of spare AA's) you can carry a back up USB charger on you that will recharge all of your toys many times over before it requires it's own recharge. I switched over all my stuff years ago.

EDIT: I would add to that my more recent Garmin products (GPS and InReach) don't really strike me as being all that "bulletproof". I would have the same concerns with these devices as I do with my phone. Not sure why we are automatically assuming that just because it's a GPS means it is indestructable.

bikehikeskifish said:

I hope I am not being perceived as unfair to Nessmuk -
Tim

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I didn't take it that way and I wasn't attempting to defend his point of view in anyway. He certainly doesn't need me to do that. I think some of his answers were a little touchy because the back and forth with himself and others was a bit of mismatch between points that were being made and the use case point of view they were being made in. I think he is on a whole different level than most of us here when it comes to navigation and his perspective on the subject is different. Going out on a SAR rescue in a blizzard is a much different scenario than the typical day hiker keeping track of his "stats" to post on Facebook after the hike is done.

bikehikeskifish said:

I hope I am not being perceived as unfair to Nessmuk - merely presenting a counter argument. If it works for him, that is great. It used to work for me, but does not any longer....

Tim

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Yup. Our friend Nessmuck is a very experienced outdoorsman with a long history of involvement in backcountry navigation and education.

But there is a new segment of folks involved in hiking that have never used anything but phone-based apps on the trail. To them compass, GPS units and paper maps are unknowns. Their ever-present phone is the center of their connected life. Using it for hiking means just another "app" to download and is a reflex response.

It is these folks and others who have flocked to AllTrails and Gaia during the Covid-driven outdoor boom. And Outside Inc. sees the opportunity to reach them by acquiring a phone navigation App company.

DayTrip said:

Plenty of phone cases out there from LifeProof, Otter and others that are waterproof and pretty hard core from a damage point of view. And most phones now have gorilla glass and other comparable heavy duty glass. Your phone isn't nearly as flimsy as you think it is.

And from someone who used to buy and recharge AA and AAA batteries for all his stuff, the rechargeable lithium ion batteries in most modern stuff hold a charge way longer and recharge way easier than your old fashioned Duracell clunkers. And for a modest weight (far less than the weight of a bunch of spare AA's) you can carry a back up USB charger on you that will recharge all of your toys many times over before it requires it's own recharge. I switched over all my stuff years ago.

EDIT: I would add to that my more recent Garmin products (GPS and InReach) don't really strike me as being all that "bulletproof". I would have the same concerns with these devices as I do with my phone. Not sure why we are automatically assuming that just because it's a GPS means it is indestructable.

Click to expand...

Check the Otter guarantee... A friend dropped his (5 or so years ago) I believe in a rocky brook, the case failed, the phone was ruined. Upon closer inspection the case was guaranteed to be replaced, not the phone inside. I think the newer Samsung is better than the first-generation waterproof ones as he takes pictures along the bay with it just under the water level

I still see teens with cracked screens.

I would expect that SAR folks and those working in extreme conditions, AK, Cascades, Rocky Mt. have more weather resistant gear and don't rely on whether or not a cell tower is near-by. In some cases, I'd expect Satellite connections.

Personally, I prefer not dragging the tech out with me any way.

ChrisB said:

Yup. Our friend Nessmuck is a very experienced outdoorsman with a long history of involvement in backcountry navigation and education.

But there is a new segment of folks involved in hiking that have never used anything but phone-based apps on the trail. To them compass, GPS units and paper maps are unknowns. Their ever-present phone is the center of their connected life. Using it for hiking means just another "app" to download and is a reflex response.

It is these folks and others who have flocked to AllTrails and Gaia during the Covid-driven outdoor boom. And Outside Inc. sees the opportunity to reach them by acquiring a phone navigation App company.

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I can't wait until those folks can safely go back to Disney, Cruises, plays and other places where people used to go in high density settings. I liked being anti-social not being a trend-setter in Social distancing.

bikehikeskifish said:

That's been true forever in just about any space. First it was the 8 track, then VHS and cassette tape, and records, and now CDs and DVDs... Cars, bicycles, skis, ..., 2-stroke, 4-stroke, battery, ... gas/diesel, electric... you name it...

The mobile phone has revolutionized my business and many, many others. In my case, it has also replaced specialized, purpose-built devices. The main advantage being that everyone has one so the market is that big.

Tim

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You forgot Vinyl.

I said "records" in the post you quoted and included "vinyl" in post #23

Tim

bikehikeskifish said:

I said "records" in the post you quoted and included "vinyl" in post #23

Tim

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Whoops! My bad. I guess I better talk to my Doctor about Prevagen. For the record. No pun intended there are all kinds of record players available. Even USB enabled. Although you'll still need a hardline connection because they don't run on batteries.

Mike P. said:

I can't wait until those folks can safely go back to Disney, Cruises, plays and other places where people used to go in high density settings. I liked being anti-social not being a trend-setter in Social distancing.

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Dude, I know EXACTLY how you feel.

That’s the same way us kids who were in da woods before you showed up feel!!

ChrisB said:

Dude, I know EXACTLY how you feel.

That’s the same way us kids who were in da woods before you showed up feel!!

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Unfortunately I don't see it going back to where it was pre pandemic. A lot of the overuse was already happening before Covid. The shear rush of adrenaline while taking a selfie on the summit of a mountain is just too addicting for most already hooked to give up. What concerns me is the onslaught of unsolicited help information that is out there on social media that is not always spot on. Exacerbating that is that most of the folks that are doing so are now self proclaimed experts because they have hiked the 48. Not to mention their lack of humility. Thing is not all of them are 20 somethings. Lots of folks over 50 that never did much hiking a couple of years ago whom have now become self proclaimed experts. I certainly would be hesitant on a subject like GPS vs Cell Phones on FB. Lots of good info here on this subject. Personally I use both devices but one or other depending on the application. I'm no expert but having both certainly gives some level of redundancy in most situations.

Mike P. said:

Check the Otter guarantee... A friend dropped his (5 or so years ago) I believe in a rocky brook, the case failed, the phone was ruined.

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If your friend had dropped a dedicated gps unit in the brook it likely would have suffered the same fate. I'm not saying the cases guarantee failproof performance. I'm just saying there are rugged options out there. My phone has taken some pretty hard falls without incident.

And I've never seen a teen with a clunky Otter or other case on their phone. You're lucky if they even have those peel and stick films to prevent scratches. Can't fit it in the pocket of their skinny jeans with that sort of contraption on it.

Anybody remember the great Backpacking Revolution?

It occurred in the early 1970s and catapulted Kelly, Sierra Designs into household names.

Gas shortages and recession and still they came to the hills.

I was part of that uptick in use and faced the same Johnny-Come-lately sentiment expressed today.

What to do? Welcome them, educate them and turn them into advocates for the land.

ChrisB said:

Anybody remember the great Backpacking Revolution?

It occurred in the early 1970s and catapulted Kelly, Sierra Designs into household names.

Gas shortages and recession and still they came to the hills.

I was part of that uptick in use and faced the same Johnny-Come-lately sentiment expressed today.

What to do? Welcome them, educate them and turn them into advocates for the land.

Click to expand...

Is there an app for that?

skiguy said:

Unfortunately I don't see it going back to where it was pre pandemic. A lot of the overuse was already happening before Covid. The shear rush of adrenaline while taking a selfie on the summit of a mountain is just too addicting for most already hooked to give up. What concerns me is the onslaught of unsolicited help information that is out there on social media that is not always spot on. Exacerbating that is that most of the folks that are doing so are now self proclaimed experts because they have hiked the 48. Not to mention their lack of humility. Thing is not all of them are 20 somethings. Lots of folks over 50 that never did much hiking a couple of years ago whom have now become self proclaimed experts. I certainly would be hesitant on a subject like GPS vs Cell Phones on FB. Lots of good info here on this subject. Personally I use both devices but one or other depending on the application. I'm no expert but having both certainly gives some level of redundancy in most situations.

Click to expand...

I'm thinking some of the sages online are in the process of doing the 48 let alone completing them. I have two hiking selfies, one on a glacier I thought I was going to die on and on the shortest of the ADK46 because I wasn't going back. Maybe my favorite line from the Dr. Strange movie, "It's not about you". I've taken more pictures of strangers so I can some some scale in the pictures.

In my pessimistic dark humor, I've joked that I'll likely end up with Alzheimer's and my kids will come by showing me my old pictures and I'll say they can't be mine because I'm not in them....

ChrisB said:

Dude, I know EXACTLY how you feel.

That’s the same way us kids who were in da woods before you showed up feel!!

Click to expand...

I'm still waiting to see if they stay. It's like the annual rush each January at health clubs. Usually, by St. Patricks' Day 90% of them stop coming and they go back to old habits.

I don't use anything but a map, and I know I'm a dinosaur. But in truth, I like not knowing on trails I haven't been on before (just finished the New England Trail, from Guildford, CT to Monadnock, and then went on the MSG to Mt. Sunapee. Took years of weekend section hiking, but so fun!)

I hike with a friend new to hiking, and he couldn't use a map to save his life. His phone is in in his from the time we leave the car until the day is done. He can tell me exactly how far we've gone, and exactly how far we have to go. To be honest, sometimes I politely ask him not to tell me. I don't need to know how far it is to a certain point, because I've calculated the book time in advance and have given ourselves plenty of time to be out and enjoy.

As someone with no skin in the game, what's so fascinating watching this argument is it's between people who all seem to have something with which they are happy. Dual-mounted gps units in a kayak? Cool! Cellphone? Cool! We've come to the point right now where, cellphone or a special device, it tells the user what the user wants to know.

Given how recently that wasn't the case, the developments so far have been amazing, and they're only going to get better.

As for Outside, as a listener to their podcast and subscriber to Outside+, I get the impression they were quite adversely impacted by the recession, and the merger of all the magazines we deemed necessary for their survival.

Outside Magazine has been quite lame for a long time. I gave up my subscription years ago. To be honest I’m surprised they are still around. They have also milked the TV market for all they can get. Kind of reminds me of EMS. A wilting onion with it’s layers slowly peeling away.