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Thread: Hiker Rescue - I think they didnt have a map

  1. #31
    Senior Member skiguy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DayTrip View Post
    Once again, I agree with you 100%. It just isn't a realistic expectation. I'm looking at it purely from the point of view of SAR and all the time and resources that get wasted for this exact same mistake every year at this spot. I think it is worth an exception in this one case to put up a better sign or something to prevent needless rescues from diverting resources to this from other better objectives.
    I disagree that it is not a realistic expectation. How many people miss the turn coming down off Garfield? Also how do you land up climbing all the way to Spaulding Pond when your headed on the AT towards Madison? How do you land up down climbing Huntington Ravine Trail when your headed to Lion’s Head? More signage, more markers, more apps? If you just keep feeding the lemmings they will just keep coming and feeding off the crumbs and never learn to feed themselves.
    Last edited by skiguy; 07-21-2022 at 05:39 PM.
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  2. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by skiguy View Post
    I disagree that it is not a realistic expectation. How many people miss the turn coming down off Garfield? Also how do you land up climbing all the way to Spaulding Pond when your headed on the AT towards Madison? How do you land up down climbing Huntington Ravine Trail when your headed to Lionís Head? More signage, more markers, more apps? If you just keep feeding the lemmings they will just keep coming and feeding off the crumbs and never learn to feed themselves.
    Again, I'm talking about that specific error and the impact of it on SAR resources. I'm not going to stop and take the time to chart it all out but I bet that simple wrong turn is the possibly the number one call out error over the past five years or more. Why not reduce the demand on SAR resources with that one ever recurring issue? How many times do we allow the same error to happen before we have a change in what we're doing?

    And not to go off on a separate argument (although that is of course the fun of this forum and why we love it) but the countless Huntington Ravine rescues I don't believe are the result of a wrong turn or not knowing where you are going but the fact that people do not understand the difficulty of the terrain and how dangerous it is, even if they understand contour lines on a map. In this case most of these people do have a map and see that trail as the shortest way back to their car not understanding the implications. This is probably the #1 SAR rescue issue in the Whites, with the GRT wrong turn weighing in at #2. If you could dramatically reduce these highly repetitive mistakes it would help take quite a load off of SAR in the area, which seems like a worthwhile goal.

  3. #33
    Senior Member JustJoe's Avatar
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    It is the individuals responsibility to self educate themselves to this hobby/outdoor recreation. The very first place I went once me and a friend decided this was something we wanted to do, was to go to the rangers desk at the Lincoln Visitors Center. Probably spent an hour getting educated and purchasing maps. But unfortunately hiking has exploded, and the new breed of hikers we seem to have just don't get this isn't like going for a walk in their local state forest. I mean, they really do not get it. It's for this reason the WMNF trail stewards program was born. It is called, PSAR - Preventive Search and Rescue. Although they are trying to keep people safe, the goal is limit putting others in harms way, rescuing these knuckleheads. If this program helps keep these selfless volunteers safe, I'm totally for it. And heaven forbid, prevents one from the ultimate sacrifice, it's worth the effort. Again, being all volunteers, they only are at the 5 busy trail-heads on weekends as most have jobs. So a little extra signage although generally unsightly, can't hurt. I would say more so at trail-heads, and not in places like Franconia Ridge. IMO, that sign as it is can't be missed. Don't know what the stewards tell people, but one should be to stop at every sign they pass. Read it, look at the map they should have, and know where to go from there. I've been hiking regularly for 25 years. When I'm in a new area/trails I haven't hiked, I'm constantly pulling out my map at junctions I'm unsure of. This needs to be conveyed to hikers before they set foot on trail. If no stewards are there to assist in this, than a few more strategically placed information boards, certainly couldn't hurt. IMHO.
    Last edited by JustJoe; 07-23-2022 at 01:03 PM.
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  4. #34
    Senior Member dug's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skiguy View Post
    How many people miss the turn coming down off Garfield?
    (Raises hand. Of course, I was 12 and trying to catch up to my brothers, but I was well on my way toward Lafayette before I was chased down)

  5. #35
    Senior Member ChrisB's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skiguy View Post
    IMO it is not anyone's job to inject information and judgement into someone whom is not capable Ö.. Just grab your cell phone and go and you too can take a selfie at the top. If so please at least get a map app. These guys got what they asked for. Again hopefully they learned something.
    One of the nice things about cell phone apps is the ability to see in real time exactly where you are located on the map grid. Iíve used this feature a few times in the Belknaps to determine whether to go left or right at a trail junction. Zoom out for the big picture and in for trail junction detail.

    And the phone will run all day in airplane mode while it very accurately tracks your exact location.
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  6. #36
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    "Grumble" - A cell phone ap should not be a primary navigation tool, a great secondary tool for the experienced but not for newby. Too easy for the battery to be drained inadvertently when its needed most. A Tyvek map does not have a battery life. Many folks will not switch their phone to airplane mode as it means they are out of touch with the rest of the world. Cell phones not in airplane mode burn up a lot of power repeatedly getting a tower fix in spotty cell coverage areas.

  7. #37
    Member briarpatch's Avatar
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    Camels Hump can have a similar issues when hikers return from the summiting to the hut clearing. The Burrows, Monroe, and the Long Trail North lead from the clearing. The majority of the day hikers have ascended using either Burrows or Monroe trail. There is a large sign on the Long Trail North that reads, "Long Trail North does NOT return to the day hiking parking lots in Huntington or Duxbury" The NOT is in red and there is a yellow triangle with an exclamation point.

    I don't have a picture of the sign, but was able to search images in Google for "long trail sign does not return to day hiking parking" and found and image.

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    I'd be willing to wager a fair amount that if you put a small, inconspicuous 6in x 6in sign at the summit with a QR Code on it linked to a summit map and directions that "wrong turns" would drop about 90%. Or at trailheads for that matter.

    "One of the biggest mistakes people make is assuming that other people think the way we think"

  9. #39
    Senior Member dug's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DayTrip View Post
    I'd be willing to wager a fair amount that if you put a small, inconspicuous 6in x 6in sign at the summit with a QR Code on it linked to a summit map and directions that "wrong turns" would drop about 90%. Or at trailheads for that matter.

    "One of the biggest mistakes people make is assuming that other people think the way we think"

    The overall question is do we want to the mountains (wilderness, trails, outdoors, etc.) to adapt to the populace, or the populace to adapt to the mountains.

  10. #40
    Senior Member skiguy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DayTrip View Post
    I'd be willing to wager a fair amount that if you put a small, inconspicuous 6in x 6in sign at the summit with a QR Code on it linked to a summit map and directions that "wrong turns" would drop about 90%. Or at trailheads for that matter.

    "One of the biggest mistakes people make is assuming that other people think the way we think"
    This is exactly the problem. We now live in a society where everything has to be digitized for us to feel safe. Or at least that is what our mired media wants us to believe. Going for a hike use to be about unplugging. Is it the duty of the folks in the hiking community with half a brain to protect the others that have no brain at all? The environment is now supposed to be adapted or is it the hiker whom should be responsible for adapting themselves. First it is another sign. Then it is QR Codes. Next thing you know we have Dominos Pizza being delivered by Drones to Guyout. If we facilitate lack of self reliance in one place expectations of the ignorant will only become more demanding and the whole experience just gets more dumbed down. Therefore ruining it for the people that are out there for the rustic experience which it should be.
    Last edited by skiguy; 07-22-2022 at 01:25 PM.
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  11. #41
    Senior Member skiguy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dug View Post
    The overall question is do we want to the mountains (wilderness, trails, outdoors, etc.) to adapt to the populace, or the populace to adapt to the mountains.
    Thankyou for saying this. I was typing my post while you were posting. I think you and I may agree.
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  12. #42
    Senior Member sierra's Avatar
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    For what's its worth, a similar scenario of incidents was occurring on the Huntington Ravine trail. They erected sign at the beginning of the trail warning of the impending difficulty and it seems to have cut down on Rescues. While I agree with the premise of not "Dumbing down" the mountains, you either want to prevent SAR from going out or you don't. The loop is a magnet for goofers and every time it gets done by some internet whiz kid, their post generate another crop of inexperienced hikers on the loop. It's worthy of an exception, imo. They might consider a more informative sign at the bottom as well.

  13. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by skiguy View Post
    This is exactly the problem. We now live in a society where everything has to be digitized for us to feel safe. Or at least that is what our mired media wants us to believe. Going for a hike use to be about unplugging. Is it the duty of the folks in the hiking community with half a brain to protect the others that have no brain at all? The environment is now supposed to be adapted or is it the hiker whom should be responsible for adapting themselves. First it is another sign. Then it is QR Codes. Next thing you know we have Dominos Pizza being delivered by Drones to Guyout. If we facilitate lack of self reliance in one place expectations of the ignorant will only become more demanding and the whole experience just gets more dumbed down. Therefore ruining it for the people that are out there for the rustic experience which it should be.
    That is the dilemma. I also want that remote, wilderness experience when I hike. I don't like buildings on summits, don't use the huts for water or shelter, etc. I tend to seek out hikes and times where I see a minimal amount of people. I'd be totally fine with no signs anywhere. That's how I enjoy it. My Way does not necessarily equal "right" and Their Way isn't necessarily "wrong". These are opinions.

    Again I don't think you're looking at it from the point of view of the populace. I think dug's statement would more aptly describe your position if it said "Do we want the mountains to adapt to the populace or do we want the populace to adapt to my point of view of the mountains". You assume your way of enjoying the mountains is the "correct" way to enjoy the mountains. The mountains are just there. They are not concerned with how we go about using them.

    I used a QR Code sign as an example because it could very small and inobtrusive to the overall view versus a giant billboard style sign like JustJoe and others posted. And it could potentially alleviate a constant drain on SAR time and resources. An example where the technology everyone here seems to dread could improve the overall views of the wilderness by not using billboards, engage the younger generations and their obsession with their phones, and maybe "trick" them into looking at a map that the QR code brings up - an opportunity to learn and ask questions about what they are seeing.

    And what about at a trailhead? Imagine if you could scan a QR code in the parking lot, it locates you on a map, it scrolls through LNT and 10 essential basics like "Sunset is at 7:18PM today. Do you have a headlamp or flashlight?", it could electronically log you into a trail register much like the paper ones used in Baxter and the Catskills and provide valuable info to SAR when they do have to go out, provide detailed usage statistics for trail maintenance, etc, etc. There are a lot of possibilities to solve or greatly reduce many of the nagging problems out there. And if you're an old curmudgeon and don't like Big Brother tracking you with all this new fangled technology? Then don't do it. Just walk right by the tiny barcode sign and carry on with your day.

    There are tons and tons of websites, forums, social media, etc out there for newbies to gather info and plan a hike and learn. Clearly this method does not work for a lot of people or we wouldn't be reliving the same mistakes over and over again. I think the only way to get to many people is at the point of entry to the woods -i.e. the parking lot. They have to go there to start the hike. Having volunteers at trailheads is a useful but also highly dependent on volunteers and limits the locations they can be. Technology can be present everywhere.
    Last edited by DayTrip; 07-23-2022 at 08:54 AM. Reason: Added Thoughts

  14. #44
    Senior Member skiguy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DayTrip View Post
    That is the dilemma. I also want that remote, wilderness experience when I hike. I don't like buildings on summits, don't use the huts for water or shelter, etc. I tend to seek out hikes and times where I see a minimal amount of people. I'd be totally fine with no signs anywhere. That's how I enjoy it. My Way does not necessarily equal "right" and Their Way isn't necessarily "wrong". These are opinions.

    Again I don't think you're looking at it from the point of view of the populace. I think dug's statement would more aptly describe your position if it said "Do we want the mountains to adapt to the populace or do we want the populace to adapt to my point of view of the mountains". You assume your way of enjoying the mountains is the "correct" way to enjoy the mountains. The mountains are just there. They are not concerned with how we go about using them.

    I used a QR Code sign as an example because it could very small and inobtrusive to the overall view versus a giant billboard style sign like JustJoe and others posted. And it could potentially alleviate a constant drain on SAR time and resources. An example where the technology everyone here seems to dread could improve the overall views of the wilderness by not using billboards, engage the younger generations and their obsession with their phones, and maybe "trick" them into looking at a map that the QR code brings up - an opportunity to learn and ask questions about what they are seeing.

    And what about at a trailhead? Imagine if you could scan a QR code in the parking lot, it locates you on a map, it scrolls through LNT and 10 essential basics like "Sunset is at 7:18PM today. Do you have a headlamp or flashlight?", it could electronically log you into a trail register much like the paper ones used in Baxter and the Catskills and provide valuable info to SAR when they do have to go out, provide detailed usage statistics for trail maintenance, etc, etc. There are a lot of possibilities to solve or greatly reduce many of the nagging problems out there. And if you're an old curmudgeon and don't like Big Brother tracking you with all this new fangled technology? Then don't do it. Just walk right by the tiny barcode sign and carry on with your day.

    There are tons and tons of websites, forums, social media, etc out there for newbies to gather info and plan a hike and learn. Clearly this method does not work for a lot of people or we wouldn't be reliving the same mistakes over and over again. I think the only way to get to many people is at the point of entry to the woods -i.e. the parking lot. They have to go there to start the hike. Having volunteers at trailheads is a useful but also highly dependent on volunteers and limits the locations they can be. Technology can be present everywhere.
    Your making some pretty big assumptions about my opinions but I guess that is what discussions are partly for. Sorry I disagree with your ideas but you seem to think your way is the right way, but I still disagree. I do see your SAR argument, but you have only created numbers within your own mind to support your hypothesis. You have thrown out some pretty theoretical numbers which again are only ideas within your own opinions that you think are right. So, let's not have the tea kettle calling the pot black. Don't get me wrong about the SAR Community as quite a few of them are and have been my friends over the last five decades and I am quite in tune with their gig. I am truly appreciative of their efforts and support their cause financially on a regular basis. So therefore, I am concerned about their wellbeing. With that said they sign on to the task well knowing what they are getting into. They know what they are doing and work together as a team and look out for themselves with a very high success rate if not impeccable record. So, could you please tell me the last time the rescuers had to be rescued? Can you tell me the last time there was serious injury or loss of life among the SAR community? Extremely low if almost nonexistent especially in comparison to the average hiker which I can confidently state without hesitation in a non-hypothetical manner. So let's agree to disagree. I will not be commenting on this thread any longer.
    Last edited by skiguy; 07-23-2022 at 02:35 PM.
    "I'm getting up and going to work everyday and I am stoked. That does not suck!"__Shane McConkey

  15. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by skiguy View Post
    Your making some pretty big assumptions about my opinions but I guess that is what discussions are partly for. Sorry I disagree with your ideas but you seem to think your way is the right way, but I still disagree. I do see your SAR argument, but you have only created numbers within your own mind to support your hypothesis. You have thrown out some pretty theoretical numbers which again are only ideas within your own opinions that you think are right. So, let's not have the tea kettle calling the pot black. Don't get me wrong about the SAR Community as quite a few of them are and have been my friends over the last five decades and I am quite in tune with their gig. I am truly appreciative of their efforts and support their cause financially on a regular basis. So therefore, I am concerned about their wellbeing. With that said they sign on to the task well knowing what they are getting into. They know what they are doing and work together as a team and look out for themselves with a very high success rate if not impeccable record. So, could you please tell me the last time the rescuers had to be rescued? Can you tell me the last time there was serious injury or loss of life among the SAR community? Extremely low if almost nonexistent especially in comparison to the average hiker which I can confidently state without hesitation in a non-hypothetical manner. So let's agree to disagree. I will not be commenting on this thread any longer.
    So I was driving to Michigan today and spent about 13 hours in my car otherwise I would have replied to this sooner. I certainly don't require any kind of apology. You're more than welcome to call me a f#$$ing jack*** right to my face and it won't bother me at all. I'm good that way..... We've had enough conversations on VFTT at this point that I feel I understand your point of view pretty well (even if I am not adequately restating it in my own words), have learned some things and got some great advice from you If I am offending you in some way by being pesky that is not my intention at all. I would just reiterate that I pretty much agree with just about everything you are saying about the fact that people should take the time to learn what they're doing, we shouldn't create fail safes for every possible idiotic situation, etc., etc.

    All I am saying is that whether we like it or not it's happening. SAR teams are getting woken up in the middle of the night and wasting time and resources plucking these idiots out of the woods. I'm not saying they are getting hurt or killed. But they're wasting time and resources on the same mistakes made by the same types of hikers. I am not suggesting I have a white paper ready to publish with a specific game plan in mind for deploying all this technology or I am sure it would work and I referenced the fact that I did not go back and tally every incident and what happened. The Huntington Ravine issue and the GRT wrong turn are rescues that repeat themselves consistently every year as others beside myself here have referenced here.

    So if the people that you feel don't belong in the mountains (your words in #29 above not mine) are going to the mountains anyway and if we are willing to entertain a different perspective on the problem there might be some technological innovations that could be used to teach these people the things you want them to know, help SAR be more efficient, improve the wilderness experience with less signage, etc . Was just thinking out loud really about possible ways to solve or at least reduce these problems with the new tools we have at our disposal now and create the educated and informed hikers we all want to see in the woods and maybe give SAR a break too. Anyway.....

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