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Thread: How to Cover the Costs of Mountain Mishaps

  1. #1
    Senior Member ChrisB's Avatar
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    How to Cover the Costs of Mountain Mishaps

    This French mayor is taking a no-nonsense approach to the problems caused by poorly prepared ("pseudo") hikers and climbers.

    Does Franconia/Lincoln have a mayor? If so please forward!

    How to make em pay for a rescue, dead or alive...

    Do you think this would fly in our good ole Whites?

    And a great quote from the mayor...

    “People want to climb with death in their backpacks,” he added. “So let’s anticipate the cost of having to rescue them, and for their burial, because it’s unacceptable that French taxpayers should foot the bill.”


    What's in your backpack?
    Last edited by ChrisB; 08-05-2022 at 09:23 AM.
    Don't let your mind write a check your body can’t cash

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    Senior Member Mohamed Ellozy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ChrisB View Post
    Do you think this would fly in our good ole Whites?
    Live free or die

    Note: I am answering your question as to how it would fly in the Whites, not stating a personal opinion.
    Last edited by Mohamed Ellozy; 08-04-2022 at 08:45 PM.

  3. #3
    Senior Member Hillwalker's Avatar
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    When I go to hike in Europe in summer, which has been 12 out of the 16 past years, I use this Insurance which covers medical, evacuation and repatriation of remains if necessary.

    Well worth $53 US

    It is good for any National Trail in Europe, not just in Auld Blighty, including the Camino de Santiago(s) which can hardly be called Mountaineering.

    https://www.alpenverein.at/britannia/index.php

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    Senior Member skiguy's Avatar
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    We already have The Hike Safe Card which is voluntary. All the Mayor is doing in France is making insurance mandatory and not optional. I agree with Mohamed. That scenario would never go down in Franconia Notch unless “ALL RESCUES” were billed out creating some financial motivation. In other words you can pay less now or a whole lot more later. Yet again I never see that happening in The Live a Free or Die State.
    "I'm getting up and going to work everyday and I am stoked. That does not suck!"__Shane McConkey

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    Senior Member Mike P.'s Avatar
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    Mont Blanc and the highest peaks in Europe are very different that the Whites. 1,000's of non-technical climbers walk on Franconia Ridge and in the Presidentials without issue every weekend.

    That is not true for Mt. Blanc, the Matterhorn or the other high peaks of Europe. I doubt anyone leaves around 3:00 in the afternoon to climb Mt. Blanc and believe they will not need a light. 9mostly because it can't be done in a day by the typical non-technical climber in one day. Even the guided trip show a two day ascent and that's by taking a railway or cable car some of the way.)

    The record for Mt. Blanc is about 5 hours held by the same guy who ran up and down the Grand Teton in under three hours. (He's not typical).
    Have fun & be safe
    Mike P.

  6. #6
    Senior Member skiguy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike P. View Post
    Mont Blanc and the highest peaks in Europe are very different that the Whites. 1,000's of non-technical climbers walk on Franconia Ridge and in the Presidentials without issue every weekend.

    That is not true for Mt. Blanc, the Matterhorn or the other high peaks of Europe. I doubt anyone leaves around 3:00 in the afternoon to climb Mt. Blanc and believe they will not need a light. 9mostly because it can't be done in a day by the typical non-technical climber in one day. Even the guided trip show a two day ascent and that's by taking a railway or cable car some of the way.)

    The record for Mt. Blanc is about 5 hours held by the same guy who ran up and down the Grand Teton in under three hours. (He's not typical).
    Not sure if you read the article or not. But the underlying reason for the Mayor wanting insurance is that people are not doing what you are exactly describing should be done. Thence the motivation for wanting insurance to be mandatory.
    "I'm getting up and going to work everyday and I am stoked. That does not suck!"__Shane McConkey

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    Senior Member sierra's Avatar
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    I already have a solution to the cost of rescues in NH, but it's not widely accepted. First off, the Hike Safe card is not the answer, nice try, actually terrible try. If you are rescued in NH, regardless of why, you get an itemized bill and are responsible for the whole cost. If you need too, you can be put on a payment plan. I could never figure out, why everyone runs around trying to figure out how to pay for something and they give it out for free. You broke your leg, ok it happens, not your fault. But the 25 people that went up and carried you down and slipped you into a waiting ambulance need to be covered for their effort and time, period. Can someone explain to me why this is a bad plan?

  8. #8
    Senior Member skiguy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skiguy View Post
    We already have The Hike Safe Card which is voluntary. All the Mayor is doing in France is making insurance mandatory and not optional. I agree with Mohamed. That scenario would never go down in Franconia Notch unless “ALL RESCUES” were billed out creating some financial motivation. In other words you can pay less now or a whole lot more later. Yet again I never see that happening in The Live a Free or Die State.
    https://tenor.com/bx8FW.gif Guilty as charged. Just should have kept my mouth shut.
    "I'm getting up and going to work everyday and I am stoked. That does not suck!"__Shane McConkey

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    Senior Member maineguy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sierra View Post
    I already have a solution to the cost of rescues in NH, but it's not widely accepted. First off, the Hike Safe card is not the answer, nice try, actually terrible try. If you are rescued in NH, regardless of why, you get an itemized bill and are responsible for the whole cost. If you need too, you can be put on a payment plan. I could never figure out, why everyone runs around trying to figure out how to pay for something and they give it out for free. You broke your leg, ok it happens, not your fault. But the 25 people that went up and carried you down and slipped you into a waiting ambulance need to be covered for their effort and time, period. Can someone explain to me why this is a bad plan?
    The following excerpt is from an article from the Dec 1995 issue of Appalachia: The author has some strong points to make. If you can find it, it is a really good read by a climber who I believe lives/lived in the Conway area.

    Click image for larger version. 

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  10. #10
    Senior Member TCD's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by maineguy View Post
    The following excerpt is from an article from the Dec 1995 issue of Appalachia: The author has some strong points to make. If you can find it, it is a really good read by a climber who I believe lives/lived in the Conway area.

    Click image for larger version. 

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    Solid work. Back when people could think straight, without being afraid that a twitter mob would demonize them. Lots to be thought about here, and some solutions are pretty easy.

  11. #11
    Senior Member ChrisB's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TCD View Post
    Solid work. Back when people could think straight, without being afraid that a twitter mob would demonize them. Lots to be thought about here, and some solutions are pretty easy.
    That “Let Them Die” article is utter nonsense and has been thoroughly discredited

    What got us out of the Great Depression was not rugged individualism. It was the New Deal: A federal government sponsored series of programs that reinforced the economy and reaffirmed the social contract.

    And we still make use of CCC trails, camps and other projects to this day!

    The victims in the rescue cited by the author were guilty of being young and inexperienced. Is that reason enough to leave them to die? In subsequent years one victim has become a leader in the development of prosthetics at MIT. A life redeemed and well spent I’d say.

    I think the article is an emotional response by a fellow climber to Albert Dow’s death, not a rational commentary on SAR.

    I recently reread the “Looking for Kate” article in Appalachia Journal by Sandy Stott. One thing that struck me was his comment that, to a person, rescuers go out because they know that someday it could be them or a friend that needs help.

    Welcome to the human community and the brotherhood of man.
    Last edited by ChrisB; 08-08-2022 at 10:06 AM.
    Don't let your mind write a check your body can’t cash

  12. #12
    Senior Member skiguy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ChrisB View Post
    That “Let Them Die” article is utter nonsense and has been thoroughly discredited
    ............By whom?
    "I'm getting up and going to work everyday and I am stoked. That does not suck!"__Shane McConkey

  13. #13
    Senior Member sierra's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ChrisB View Post
    That “Let Them Die” article is utter nonsense and has been thoroughly discredited

    What got us out of the Great Depression was not rugged individualism. It was the New Deal: A federal government sponsored series of programs that reinforced the economy and reaffirmed the social contract.

    And we still make use of CCC trails, camps and other projects to this day!

    The victims in the rescue cited by the author were guilty of being young and inexperienced. Is that reason enough to leave them to die? In subsequent years one victim has become a leader in the development of prosthetics at MIT. A life redeemed and well spent I’d say.

    I think the article is an emotional response by a fellow climber to Albert Dow’s death, not a rational commentary on SAR.

    I recently reread the “Looking for Kate” article in Appalachia Journal by Sandy Stott. One thing that struck me was his comment that, to a person, rescuers go out because they know that someday it could be them or a friend that needs help.

    Welcome to the human community and the brotherhood of man.
    I agree that everybody that needs help should get it, from the experienced mountaineer, down to the 16 internet whiz kid on his first unprepared hike. I also agree that SAR puts their feelings side and does what they do, because the essence of their mission is to lend help when needed regardless of the circumstances. That being said, after all the hand holding, litter carrying and bodies are back in civilization, you hand them a bill. I once came upon a small group on Lions Head summit in the winter, standing over a shivering member with a snapped ankle. While assessing the victim and realizing a he was going into shock, an ice climber walked up. I grabbed his rope and lowered the injured hiker down to the Tucks trail to a arriving litter. Call me old fashioned, but climbers always help each other, period.

  14. #14
    Senior Member maineguy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skiguy View Post
    ............By whom?
    Exactly! Controversial, yes. But hardly discredited. Here is what Guy Waterman had to say about the matter:

    Click image for larger version. 

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    Last edited by maineguy; 08-09-2022 at 07:28 AM.

  15. #15
    Senior Member Mike P.'s Avatar
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    One of the biggest ways one measures a Society is based on its compassion for one another. They did something wrong, planned poorly, brought bad gear, went in bad weather, etc, they deserve to die? Speeders in winter should be left to get out of their mangled cars and not risk the lives of first responders who may have to walk on the icy interstate in the dark to get them. (wait until morning and it stops snowing) Who wants to tell some kids that you could have rescued their mom but she got herself in trouble.

    Guy Waterman & a 30's mentality don't work today, How many of you let them die folks went and bought PLB's? Why?, aren't we leaving you to die? It still cost money to get you, you are just easier to locate. Do we have to go back to hob-nail boots and wool? How many winter peakbaggers were there in the 30's? (Any?) How many people were even hiking? People have greater mobility and access today with more leisure time. That isn't going back to the 30's 40's or even the 70's

    We aren't going back to an era where women made history worthy of being in Forest & Crag because a few of them climbed Mt. Washington in heavy wool dresses. I'm quite happy that the trails are not just sweaty men. I've only been doing this since the 90's and I've noticed a big change in even that time period. Back then, most of the women you saw were out with boyfriends or in mixed groups with college outing clubs. I was on Mt. Crawford on a winter weekday this year and only saw four other people, all women. I also don't miss the frequent, "I'm a woman, is hiking safe threads here, Is a knife or gun needed?

    Why stop with hikers, climbers and skiers who don't follow common sense of break "the rules" (Provide rules please)
    Broke traffic laws and got in an accident? Too bad (Were you hit by someone breaking the law, sucks to be you.)
    Someone had a no swimming flag out due to rip currents and you ignored it, rescue yourself
    Built in a floodplain and your home flooded? Who would have thought that might happen?

    if someone can explain to me why millions live in the dessert and think they should have playgrounds and golf courses with invasive species, grass, brought in, I'd love an explanation on that. (they have lots of $$$$, that's the explanation)
    Have fun & be safe
    Mike P.

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