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Thread: How to manage WMNF

  1. #31
    Senior Member skiguy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dug View Post
    Would we line all the roads with no parking signs throughout the entire area? Quick pull-offs on the side of 302 for people to take a dip in. Hunters, loggers, leaf-peepers, hikers, backpackers, general neighborhood traffic, etc. Truckers driving through and pulling over for a rest? There are something like 300 trailheads I think that feed areas in the White Mtns. that's a lot of staff designed as parking control.

    Don't disagree with the sentiment but I can't come up a a good option (to me) that won't cost so much to implement that the cost/benefit for an average family to stomach.
    That’s where your supposed to cast off the chains and let the rich pay for it.
    "I'm getting up and going to work everyday and I am stoked. That does not suck!"__Shane McConkey

  2. #32
    Senior Member dave.m's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skiguy View Post
    That’s where your supposed to cast off the chains and let the rich pay for it.
    Exactly so.

    My German "sister" came to visit as mom was dying in a nursing home. She asked me in her direct German manner...

    "David, in our country, we want our people to be healthy and educated. What is wrong with your country?"

    There is a vast number of things that society needs to be healthy and educated that can't be reduced to mere commodities to be sold for profit to only those who can afford it.

    Whether at the local, state or federal level, natural parks and recreational opportunities are some of the infrastructure needed to have a healthy populace. So yes... tax the rich and invest in our people's health by, among other things, providing well funded and free outdoor recreation opportunities such as WMNF.

    Quote Originally Posted by dug View Post
    Would we line all the roads with no parking signs throughout the entire area? Quick pull-offs on the side of 302 for people to take a dip in. Hunters, loggers, leaf-peepers, hikers, backpackers, general neighborhood traffic, etc. Truckers driving through and pulling over for a rest? There are something like 300 trailheads I think that feed areas in the White Mtns. that's a lot of staff designed as parking control.
    Trailheads and only trailheads. Might not need to have permits for all trailheads either. That could be adjusted by usage numbers.

    I'm not at all put off by the number of staff. It's a job creation opportunity.

    Don't disagree with the sentiment but I can't come up a a good option (to me) that won't cost so much to implement that the cost/benefit for an average family to stomach.
    Permits should be free; full stop. Tax the rich. If that's not enough, cap military spending to be no more than the next 5 countries military spending combined.
    - Dave (a.k.a. pinnah)

    " Power corrupts. Absolute power is kind of neat." - John Lehman, US Secretary of the Navy 1981-1987

  3. #33
    Senior Member dug's Avatar
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    Our solution for everything in this country can't just be "tax the rich". It's lazy.

  4. #34
    Senior Member skiguy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dug View Post
    Our solution for everything in this country can't just be "tax the rich". It's lazy.
    Does seem to be a default solution by some. I hear the hiking is quite good in Germany. I suppose one could always move there if they wanted to reap the benefits. For myself I’ll stick to more realistic solutions before going out on some self perceived idealistic rant.
    "I'm getting up and going to work everyday and I am stoked. That does not suck!"__Shane McConkey

  5. #35
    Senior Member dug's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skiguy View Post
    Does seem to be a default solution by some. I hear the hiking is quite good in Germany. I suppose one could always move there if they wanted to reap the benefits. For myself I’ll stick to more realistic solutions before going out on some self perceived idealistic rant.
    "Tax the Rich" is code for "someone else pay for what I want".

  6. #36
    Senior Member Mike P.'s Avatar
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    As other's mentioned, Parks established in wide open sparsely populated areas 100 years ago can be set up different than a National Forest Established over 200 years after people began to inhabit the area. (Well Yellowstone and Western areas were inhabited, we moved those people from their homes, pretty sure no one in NH or the ADKs is looking at being moved to a reservation. Actually, the ADK and WMNF are set up so that people live within the ADK Park and National Forest. No one lives in Yosemite although some climbers have tried squatting from time to time.) The Western Parks would be more similar to BSP which some people love here and some people here whine about the restrictions.

    Twenty years ago I was looking at having work pay for a trip to CA where I was going to take two weeks and hike all throughout the Sierra including Yosemite and Lassen. I had found where their accidents were recorded and they have, in many cases, the same types of calls that F&G.

    I tried to find where I was looking 20 years ago without luck but found this: https://taskandpurpose.com/news/army...rs-mt-whitney/

    In 2016 we visited Yosemite and we could not drive in and get a parking spot near the East Gate to try climb Tioga Peak which would have been about 1,000 feet of gain from a start of almost 10,000. We did get a spot on a side road with well over 100 cars to get to an easy hike to Dog Lake. We played tourist one day on the Valley Floor walking and tried to get to Glacier Point one afternoon and the road was closed because every spot at Glacier, Washburn and Sentinel lots were packed. (They turned us around at the ski area) We managed to do a family hike to Sentinel Dome on a Thursday Evening, my son and I also did Taft Point. On the Day of the wedding, (we stayed at Tenaya Lodge for the nights around the wedding, a home through VRBO the rest of the week) I was up at 2:30, drove to Washburn Point and waited for sunrise. After about an hour, I went back to Sentinel Dome and caught sunrise. (Which comes up behind Half Dome in August.) I was one of about two dozen people who were up there for sunrise.

    There's hiking and backpacking in Yosemite, sure, however, it has little peakbagging, it's just tourist, climbers and some backpackers. Dana at the East Gate is the only 13K peak, The CA 14K and 13K is spread out throughout the state, mostly along the Sierra. (Shasta being in the Cascades) The permit system for parking at Whitney Portal isn't easy to get.

    Neither the Whites or ADK is going to get the funding needed to higher massive amounts of staff until they are a separate entity that can raise revenue and keep it in house. Currently they get funds from the Department of the Interior or the State of NY. Considering that several properties that the DOI have been, (are) on fire, the WMNF is a smooth-running operation. The State of NH and AMC help with some of the maintenance and education and rescues. BLM lands, also run by the DOI don't have this type of help, in fact, more likely you have the ranchers that use the land helping out. (Would that be similar to having the loggers and paper companies helping out in the WMNF?)
    Last edited by Mike P.; 08-23-2022 at 04:37 PM.
    Have fun & be safe
    Mike P.

  7. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by dug View Post
    "Tax the Rich" is code for "someone else pay for what I want".
    Probably more comparable to "pay the same effective tax rate that I do." There was a time before Reagan that this type of thing was funded. Now we give everything to the lowest bidder and wonder why our infrastructure is crumbling.

  8. #38
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    Folks forget, much of the WMNF boundaries are not necessarily lined up with roads, there are many inholdings and the state of NH owns a lot of land along the roads. As the Mt Washington Plan makes it obvious the primary goal of the state is crank up tourism to get more room and meals taxes. Not sure how cooperative the state would be in buttoning up the WMNF.

    I have no doubt that the reason why Lafayette Place is not much larger and does not have parking meters or a parking permit system is that it was built with federal highway money and by law the state is prohibited from adding fees to the lot. In most cases if the state wants to do so they have to pay back the Federal government for fed share of the construction.
    Last edited by peakbagger; 08-23-2022 at 06:33 PM.

  9. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rhody Seth View Post

    My daughter and I stayed at Lakes of the Clouds on Saturday and it is one of my few recent experiences with mob scene within the Whites. .
    Ugh. Were you able to crush a few beers at the pool party on the big Lake? I went through there about 5PM SAT and it was more like a frat house than a wilderness lodge. I hightailed it to the rock outcrops at the top of the Camel Trail and made my dinner there so it was out of view and mostly out of ear shot. I pretty much always hike now early, late and in the dark and get way off the beaten path during the day. Nothing about the LOC hut SAT resembled what I want out of a hiking experience.

  10. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by dug View Post
    Our solution for everything in this country can't just be "tax the rich". It's lazy.
    It's lazier to let the rich get away without paying anything, let alone their fair share.

  11. #41
    Senior Member hikerbrian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dug View Post
    Don't disagree with the sentiment but I can't come up a a good option
    My guess is things had to get REALLY bad at Yosemite before people were willing to make big changes like the entrance permits. That's a huge amount of revenue they're leaving on the table, every single day. And a huge investment in electronic infrastructure. But the alternative, keeping the status quo, was no longer tenable. I'm not sure we're there with the Whites. It's bad...but is it THAT bad?
    Sure. Why not.

  12. #42
    Senior Member hikerbrian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike P. View Post
    In 2016 we visited Yosemite and we could not drive in and get a parking spot near the East Gate ... the road was closed because every spot at Glacier, Washburn and Sentinel lots were packed.
    I guess that's the remarkable part: we found a parking spot at 4-mile trailhead at like 9 in the morning (this is a VERY popular trailhead that leads to Glacier Point). Same with Clouds Rest. And Tenaya Lake. Our experience was NOTHING like what you've described from 2016.
    Sure. Why not.

  13. #43
    Senior Member dailey7779's Avatar
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    I'll comment on what I see near me. I live equidistant between Appalachia and Pinkham Notch. Yes, trailheads are overflowing on Saturday's at the usual spots here but Sunday's have been much quieter this year compared to the last two, and during the week all this is a non issue 90% of the time. After Labor Day there will be even less cars at the trailheads and then after foliage season it'll be completely dead during the week and quiet on weekends. Basically what I am saying is it's not even close to as bad as what it looks like to a weekend warrior.

    As for the crowded trails, I think everyone on this forum knows how to avoid them easily so it is what it is. Appalachia is a zoo, just drive around the corner and park at Randolph East, the top of Pinkham B Road at Pine Link, or the Great Gulf and you'll have a quiet hike for many miles. I've been working on a hiking project this summer which has put me on Washington about forty times the past three months including almost every Saturday, I start early and see no one, then I see everyone especially if I decide to descend Tucks. I will say this, all these people who I have not much in common with when it comes to experience on the mountains are having the times of their lives, they are happy, the only miserable people I ever see is an old crotchety hiker complaining about crowds.

    You want a quiet uncrowded experience in the Whites on the weekends, it's still attainable with a little planning.

    -Chris & Sarge
    Last edited by dailey7779; 08-24-2022 at 01:43 PM.

  14. #44
    Senior Member maineguy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dug View Post
    "Tax the Rich" is code for "someone else pay for what I want".
    That is correct. The top 10% of taxpayers pay 71% of all income taxes. The top 25% pay 87%. The bottom 50% pay 3%. Yeah, I know, some "rich guy" pays a lower rate than some middle class guy because he has smart tax experts working for him. But overall, the rich pay most of the income taxes. Some want them to pay tax rates of 90% or more. This is just class envy.

  15. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by maineguy View Post
    That is correct. The top 10% of taxpayers pay 71% of all income taxes. The top 25% pay 87%. The bottom 50% pay 3%. Yeah, I know, some "rich guy" pays a lower rate than some middle class guy because he has smart tax experts working for him. But overall, the rich pay most of the income taxes. Some want them to pay tax rates of 90% or more. This is just class envy.
    We don't have a tax problem in my opinion. We collect more than enough tax $$$ every year. We have a problem wasting and inefficiently using this tax money and then getting taxed more to offset this incompetence versus holding horrible politicians accountable. The examples are endless. Just pouring water in a bucket with a huge hole in it. We don't need more water. We need a new bucket.

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