How to manage WMNF

dug said:

Don't disagree with the sentiment but I can't come up a a good option

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My guess is things had to get REALLY bad at Yosemite before people were willing to make big changes like the entrance permits. That's a huge amount of revenue they're leaving on the table, every single day. And a huge investment in electronic infrastructure. But the alternative, keeping the status quo, was no longer tenable. I'm not sure we're there with the Whites. It's bad...but is it THAT bad?

Mike P. said:

In 2016 we visited Yosemite and we could not drive in and get a parking spot near the East Gate ... the road was closed because every spot at Glacier, Washburn and Sentinel lots were packed.

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I guess that's the remarkable part: we found a parking spot at 4-mile trailhead at like 9 in the morning (this is a VERY popular trailhead that leads to Glacier Point). Same with Clouds Rest. And Tenaya Lake. Our experience was NOTHING like what you've described from 2016.

I'll comment on what I see near me. I live equidistant between Appalachia and Pinkham Notch. Yes, trailheads are overflowing on Saturday's at the usual spots here but Sunday's have been much quieter this year compared to the last two, and during the week all this is a non issue 90% of the time. After Labor Day there will be even less cars at the trailheads and then after foliage season it'll be completely dead during the week and quiet on weekends. Basically what I am saying is it's not even close to as bad as what it looks like to a weekend warrior.

As for the crowded trails, I think everyone on this forum knows how to avoid them easily so it is what it is. Appalachia is a zoo, just drive around the corner and park at Randolph East, the top of Pinkham B Road at Pine Link, or the Great Gulf and you'll have a quiet hike for many miles. I've been working on a hiking project this summer which has put me on Washington about forty times the past three months including almost every Saturday, I start early and see no one, then I see everyone especially if I decide to descend Tucks. I will say this, all these people who I have not much in common with when it comes to experience on the mountains are having the times of their lives, they are happy, the only miserable people I ever see is an old crotchety hiker complaining about crowds.

You want a quiet uncrowded experience in the Whites on the weekends, it's still attainable with a little planning.

-Chris & Sarge

dug said:

"Tax the Rich" is code for "someone else pay for what I want".

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That is correct. The top 10% of taxpayers pay 71% of all income taxes. The top 25% pay 87%. The bottom 50% pay 3%. Yeah, I know, some "rich guy" pays a lower rate than some middle class guy because he has smart tax experts working for him. But overall, the rich pay most of the income taxes. Some want them to pay tax rates of 90% or more. This is just class envy.

maineguy said:

That is correct. The top 10% of taxpayers pay 71% of all income taxes. The top 25% pay 87%. The bottom 50% pay 3%. Yeah, I know, some "rich guy" pays a lower rate than some middle class guy because he has smart tax experts working for him. But overall, the rich pay most of the income taxes. Some want them to pay tax rates of 90% or more. This is just class envy.

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We don't have a tax problem in my opinion. We collect more than enough tax $$$ every year. We have a problem wasting and inefficiently using this tax money and then getting taxed more to offset this incompetence versus holding horrible politicians accountable. The examples are endless. Just pouring water in a bucket with a huge hole in it. We don't need more water. We need a new bucket.

dailey7779 said:

I'll comment on what I see near me. I live equidistant between Appalachia and Pinkham Notch. Yes, trailheads are overflowing on Saturday's at the usual spots here but Sunday's have been much quieter this year compared to the last two, and during the week all this is a non issue 90% of the time. After Labor Day there will be even less cars at the trailheads and then after foliage season it'll be completely dead during the week and quiet on weekends. Basically what I am saying is it's not even close to as bad as what it looks like to a weekend warrior.

As for the crowded trails, I think everyone on this forum knows how to avoid them easily so it is what it is. Appalachia is a zoo, just drive around the corner and park at Randolph East, the top of Pinkham B Road at Pink Link, or the Great Gulf and you'll have a quiet hike for many miles. I've been working on a hiking project this summer which has put me on Washington about forty times the past three months including almost every Saturday, I start early and see no one, then I see everyone especially if I decide to descend Tucks. I will say this, all these people who I have not much in common with when it comes to experience on the mountains are having the times of their lives, they are happy, the only miserable people I ever see is an old crotchety hiker complaining about crowds.

You want a quiet uncrowded experience in the Whites on the weekends, it's still attainable with a little planning.

-Chris & Sarge

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Very true. This applies over here in the ADKs as well.

This is another reason why I don't share the hysteria over "too many people on the trails." I have no problem finding quiet whenever I want it. And, I enjoy seeing a bunch of people having fun. In fact, the more carping I hear about "I saw another person, so it ruined my wilderness experience," the more I tend to seek out a popular spot the next hike for the refreshing sight of people (especially kids) enjoying the mountains.

IMO the USFS is an entrenched bureaucracy that rewards staff to be non-controversial. The WMNF is generally regarded as a plum pre-retirement reward for supervisors who have gone along with the system for their entire careers. Suggesting or implementing usage restrictions would be a major controversial item and unless it's comes down from on high from DC, no WMNF supervisor would risk his career progression suggesting it. Far easier to participate in blue ribbon commissions that delay any decisions to the next supervisor.

As an example, look at the USFS approach to date on the Mt Washington commission master plan, make few comments or waves until they are forced into it. This is not one off, they were very quiet on the prior summit hotel proposal. NH government has made it clear that they want to have unlimited summit use and do what they need to encourage that use. If WMNF objects pressure will be applied.

DayTrip said:

Ugh. Were you able to crush a few beers at the pool party on the big Lake? I went through there about 5PM SAT and it was more like a frat house than a wilderness lodge. I hightailed it to the rock outcrops at the top of the Camel Trail and made my dinner there so it was out of view and mostly out of ear shot. I pretty much always hike now early, late and in the dark and get way off the beaten path during the day. Nothing about the LOC hut SAT resembled what I want out of a hiking experience.

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Yeah there were about 15 bros having their yearly trip and they lugged up five or six bags of wine along with other assorted things. It made dinner pretty obnoxious but in retrospect I should have expected craziness from the biggest hut on a Saturday. Thankfully we didn't have any of the ringleaders in our room and we slept decently.

ETA: Extreme wealth is morally repugnant. Tax the hell out of 'em.

hikerbrian said:

I guess that's the remarkable part: we found a parking spot at 4-mile trailhead at like 9 in the morning (this is a VERY popular trailhead that leads to Glacier Point). Same with Clouds Rest. And Tenaya Lake. Our experience was NOTHING like what you've described from 2016.

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I wonder if news of fires in the area prevent people from heading there or if from CA population centers, fires block main access roads. (That said, Yosemite and the Grand Canyon are filled with plates from all over the country and Canada also.)

Both are incredibly beautiful. Crowds have made the wildlife not afraid of people. My daughter and I had a snack within 15 or 20 feet of a baby deer and its mother at Yosemite. At the Canyon, the Elk graze right next to the road. (Stay in the car do not pet the wildlife, IK, not needed for this group.)

TCD said:

the more I tend to seek out a popular spot the next hike for the refreshing sight of people (especially kids) enjoying the mountains.

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That was one refreshing thing I noticed among the massive crowds on SAT. A majority of the groups were families with kids say 12 years old and younger. I can't recall seeing so many young hikers on the trails. I actually commented on that point to a woman I chatted with heading out SUN with her young daughter. Hopefully they are teaching the proper lessons (i.e. LNT, etc) out on their trips.

DayTrip said:

We don't have a tax problem in my opinion. We collect more than enough tax $$$ every year. We have a problem wasting and inefficiently using this tax money and then getting taxed more to offset this incompetence versus holding horrible politicians accountable. The examples are endless. Just pouring water in a bucket with a huge hole in it. We don't need more water. We need a new bucket.

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Have you ever thought about running for office. We need folks that think like you do.

skiguy said:

Have you ever thought about running for office. We need folks that think like you do.

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I think there are plenty of people with the right idea/perspective on government. They'll just never get elected in our current "system".

Mike P. said:

I wonder if news of fires in the area prevent people from heading there or if from CA population centers

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They hadn't gotten started yet when we were there, except for the Wawona fire, which wasn't really impacting most of the park. We went by Camp 4 on a Saturday and were surprised to find spots - the ranger there told us this was unusual on a weekend and probably was because some of the locals were waiting until the last minute to see if fires were going to be an issue. But in the rest of the park - I'd say English speakers were a minority; most travelers were either international or Americans who clearly had made plans months in advance, like us. I think the biggest impact on crowds was the reservation system, not fires.

DayTrip said:

We collect more than enough tax $$$ every year.

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Amen. Considering the comments here, I come back to the prospect that the Whites are crowded, and there are problems, but they don't rise to the level of making major changes which themselves have potential to be a cure worse than the disease. As for taxing the rich, well, my wife and I send something approaching 40% of our income off to local, state, and federal governments. [25% effective Fed + FICA, 5% state, 5% local, ~3-5% MA sales] So as to avoid flushing this interesting thread directly into the composting toilet, I'll refrain from saying too much more about it, other than, 40% is a lot.

peakbagger said:

IMO the USFS is an entrenched bureaucracy that rewards staff to be non-controversial. The WMNF is generally regarded as a plum pre-retirement reward for supervisors who have gone along with the system for their entire careers. Suggesting or implementing usage restrictions would be a major controversial item and unless it's comes down from on high from DC, no WMNF supervisor would risk his career progression suggesting it. Far easier to participate in blue ribbon commissions that delay any decisions to the next supervisor.

As an example, look at the USFS approach to date on the Mt Washington commission master plan, make few comments or waves until they are forced into it. This is not one off, they were very quiet on the prior summit hotel proposal. NH government has made it clear that they want to have unlimited summit use and do what they need to encourage that use. If WMNF objects pressure will be applied.

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peak bagger, I agree with your assessment and in fact, think the problem is worse than you describe. But, this may have led me to a slightly different conclusion.

I've spent my career (more than 3 decades) supporting various parts of the USG on both the civilian and military side. Contrary to the cartoon images of buffoonery, most low to mid level managers I've worked with are public servants trying to accomplish the mission as stated. However, as you correctly describe, when you get to the rank of upper management "the system" rewards people who understand the golden rule of Washington - namely, he who has the gold makes the rules.

The closer managers get to Congressional hearings, the more overt the problem comes. The point of our current government is to advance commerce. Period. Full stop.

Radical Neoliberal political/economic theory has won 2 major victories. The first is that it has transformed (or, perhaps better, recaptured) government to be for and by corporations and the rich as opposed to for and by the people. The second and deeper victory is that it is has convinced us that this is the inevitable natural order of things. The system just is and we are to accept it as such.

An alternative view is that it the right (or duty!) of the governed to democratically determine how they will be governed. This is where I've landed.

If the system is rewarding bureaucrats who go along to get along, then we must change the system.

Let me put it this way... The first step in answering the question "How to manage the WMNF?" is to agree that it is our national forest and that the USFS must work for us. Sadly, there is no easy button for this. My take... it starts with local organizing capable of controlling towns and states. Corporations and the rich played the long game and now hold the reigns of power.

hikerbrian said:

Amen. Considering the comments here, I come back to the prospect that the Whites are crowded, and there are problems, but they don't rise to the level of making major changes which themselves have potential to be a cure worse than the disease. As for taxing the rich, well, my wife and I send something approaching 40% of our income off to local, state, and federal governments. [25% effective Fed + FICA, 5% state, 5% local, ~3-5% MA sales] So as to avoid flushing this interesting thread directly into the composting toilet, I'll refrain from saying too much more about it, other than, 40% is a lot.

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You aren't rich enough.

If you were, you wouldn't be relying on "income" to grow your wealth and your lawyers would have helped you shelter your assets away from tax burdens.

dave.m said:

You aren't rich enough.

If you were, you wouldn't be relying on "income" to grow your wealth and your lawyers would have helped you shelter your assets away from tax burdens.

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Believe me, I know. The problem is those you refer to above are untouchable. I wish it weren't so, but it is. The hikerbrian's of the nation, OTOH, are not. That is the truth, and I've provided what I hope is a useful data point. Again, I come back to the prospect that the WMNF's problems don't need to be fixed. Certainly not by taxing the 'rich.'

Guyot site and the Lincoln Woods trailhead has needed a reservation system for about 10 years. That needs to happen - what a zoo. On the state side, Falling Waters could perhaps benefit from a reservation system.

hikerbrian said:

Believe me, I know. The problem is those you refer to above are untouchable. I wish it weren't so, but it is. The hikerbrian's of the nation, OTOH, are not. That is the truth, and I've provided what I hope is a useful data point. Again, I come back to the prospect that the WMNF's problems don't need to be fixed. Certainly not by taxing the 'rich.'

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I always find it interesting in how "rich" is defined. Seems to often be a few dollars more than what the individual makes. Meaning...millions of people throughout the world would think I'm rich. Millions of people throughout the world would think I am poor. That's why it's a lazy argument, as it just shuffles the responsibility to those above and say "you're rich, you can afford it".

If every person who needed a problem solved used the solution "tax the rich", if I were them, I'd GTFO. The "rich" in this country (depending on your definition) already have the highest effective tax rate in the world.

roadtripper said:

Guyot site and the Lincoln Woods trailhead has needed a reservation system for about 10 years. That needs to happen - what a zoo. On the state side, Falling Waters could perhaps benefit from a reservation system.

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I have to disagree with there needs to be a reservation system for certain trailheads. We are talking about 30 days tops out of 365 that it is a zoo, Weekends between late June and Columbus Day Weekend. The rest of the time there is no problem getting a spot. Last Friday I stopped by Lincoln Woods around 10AM and there were still spots open. Same goes for Falling Waters / Old Bridle Path TH.

Everyone on this forum knows getting to popular trailheads early is the name of the game, if FW / OBP is full you can go park at Cannon Tramway lot and hike from there. How difficult is an extra couple of easy miles along the rec path or the Pemi Trail at the beginning or end of hike depending if you choose to ascend or descend Greenleaf Trail from the tram lot?

Just to be clear, I am commenting on the trailheads and parking, not if popular tent sites need permits (which I agree a permit system would help) or regulate how many hikers should be allowed on trails, which I think trail reconstruction could offset erosion issues, like what Jeremy has accomplished in the past dozen years on Tecumseh, without his trail work it would be an eroded mess similar to Kinsman Ridge up Cannon.