Would it happen in NH? S&R tells someone to hunker down for the night

OldEric said:

But for the rescue part I want the real deal. And a lot more use of helicopters (which may also require some dedicated rescue pilots)

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Mac said:

Here's another one.
https://globalnews.ca/news/9183216/hiker-accident-highlights-limitation-bc-rescue-rules/
"...helicopter dropped down a bag of supplies...."

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Helicopters are expensive!

Instead, I think one day inexpensive and easy to operate drones will revolutionize reconnaissance and initial response to calls requesting SAR intervention. Here is what it might look like in the future:

After a distressed hiker calls 911 requesting assistance a drone is dispatched to coordinates sent by callers phone during 911 call. Once at GZ the drone will hone in on signal from hiker's phone (identified by the the number received in emergency call) and it will provide a visual of distressed hiker. The drone will also be equipped with infrared camera for spotting people in the dark or in low visibility conditions.

Once the drone locates the hiker it will drop a bag with basic supplies that will include:

1. flash light
2. map
3. compass
4. few energy bars
5. small bottle of water (thread compatible with Sawyer Mini water filter)
6. first aid kit
7. hand warmers
8. emergency space blanket
9. small external battery pack with USB charging cable supporting common phone connectors.

If the hiker purchased HikeSafe Delux card he or she will also receive:

1. SAR-customized, always-on inReach mini satellite communicator (post-event return required)
2. cheap stripped-down smartphone with pre-loaded trail maps based on OpenStreetMap data and gps turned on whenever powered up that will highlight available exit routes from current location (post-event return required)
3. SOL Thermal Bivy
4. hat
5. gloves
6. thermal socks
7. Sawyer Mini water filter.

Dropped off items will help most lost hikers (23% of SAR events per article quoted earlier) find the way back on their own or stay put until SAR team arrives. This will lower the cost of more expensive rescue missions by reducing the time it will take to locate a hiker and better assessment of hiker's condition even before any rescue party is put together.

BTW to inject a bit of reality into the thread, the NH national guard is building a hangar and plans to post a helicopter and staff at the Berlin Airport (actually in Milan). Currently helicopters have to fly up from Concord so they burn up a lot of fuel just getting here limiting how long they can actually be on scene. This also burns up the training budget. They are being trained for flight operations in rough conditions so the trips up from Concord really does not contribute a lot to the training quality so they get more hours of quality training time for less overall budget by operating nearby.

And, like my neighbor (USAF veteran jet pilot) likes to say: " a helicopter is 10,000 parts flying in close formation around an oil leak"

I should point out that the pie-graph link posted that shows NHF&G funding sources is not very informative as to the use of the pittance from General Funds. I happen to live with someone that has worked for F&G for a couple of decades and have probably too much internal knowledge, as well as having recently retired myself from almost 3 decades of service with another state agency, where I happened to run an unfunded S&R operation for the State of NH during a period of that time. People on my crew had to buy their own 2-way radios to function professionally on behalf of the state back then (which was a mere few years ago).

NHF&G runs a large portion of their programs and efforts through numerous grant funding sources that depend on a matching grant of some kind. Occasionally the grant match requirement can come from another grant, but mostly it has to be internal general funds, so in order to maximize the grant funds, the general funds are used as such.

Not wanting to spend much of my valuable time on the subject, I can't provide you a factual or evidence based source for the following statement; but other than the rooms and meals tax, I can't think of any other stable broad base tax mechanism in NH that is currently providing the suggestion that there is enough in the general tax fund to go around to all the public benefit needs in this state. So we do what we have always been doing in this state to try to make it run, charge fees for the specific services we provide, as this has been my perspective as a young transplant from another New England state; have the state agencies provide direct fees as closely related to the services we provide. I'm not saying I agree or disagree with this, and it certainly produces a wicked tight budget, but that is what it is here and apparently what the majority of NH residents prefer.

When I was commanding the S&R operation at Monadnock we were independent of NHF&G but were supposedly under their command oversight, and benefitted from assistance of personnel sometimes, or when asked or to turn over command. Around 2002 or so after one of the iterations or the F&G laws and being absolutely desperate myself to get my hands on some $ to modernize my operation and actually pay myself and employees, I approached the director of NH State Parks at the time with a very reasonable proposal. Since we operated under the philosophy of NH Parks being "The only self-funded (I preferred 'user-funded' state park system in the nation"), why don't we just charge straight staff service costs for staff time on rescues? Many other (public health) service providers such as ambulance, helicopter, and hospitals do just that, why not Parks? The director felt that it conflicted with what F&G was doing with 'charging' people, so was not receptive. I think she just didn't want to get in the middle and have to unravel the mess.

I do have to say that too many of our call outs were not true emergencies and more of assistance to discomfort imposed upon oneself due to their own actions (but with the volume of calls there, there were plenty of true emergencies); but it was always an odd reality for me that the public expectation was for the S&R crew to be called out to risk life and limb at all hours and conditions to 'rescue' someone from a non-life-threatening night out in the woods, and I might happen to visit Boston and have to step over homeless persons probably suffering from hypothermia, and nobody cares.

Personally I miss the days when the woods were the refuge of the weird and rugged oddballs that loved the unique challenges presented by the raw experiences offered from a time possibly lost to days gone by. I knew something was up back in the 90's when people I passed on the trail started to appear nicely dressed and smell good. I always wondered what was so attractive about getting bit by swarms of insects while sweating miserably under a heavy pack load up a trail no reasonable human should undertake. I always enjoyed the company of such souls who's blood was obviously filled with mountain stream water and duly humbled by it and the environment at hand.

I guess since NH has not got much else good except its woods and outlet malls, it will continue to over-market the outdoor experience with infrastructure unprepared to deal with it.

Oh, the premise of the OP title, I think it's already been happening. And I love the drone posting (especially the humor), it really is a potential game changer.

iAmKrzys said:

Helicopters are expensive!

Instead, I think one day inexpensive and easy to operate drones will revolutionize reconnaissance and initial response to calls requesting SAR intervention. Here is what it might look like in the future:

After a distressed hiker calls 911 requesting assistance a drone is dispatched to coordinates sent by callers phone during 911 call. Once at GZ the drone will hone in on signal from hiker's phone (identified by the the number received in emergency call) and it will provide a visual of distressed hiker. The drone will also be equipped with infrared camera for spotting people in the dark or in low visibility conditions.

Once the drone locates the hiker it will drop a bag with basic supplies that will include:

1. flash light
2. map
3. compass
4. few energy bars
5. small bottle of water (thread compatible with Sawyer Mini water filter)
6. first aid kit
7. hand warmers
8. emergency space blanket
9. small external battery pack with USB charging cable supporting common phone connectors.

If the hiker purchased HikeSafe Delux card he or she will also receive:

1. SAR-customized, always-on inReach mini satellite communicator (post-event return required)
2. cheap stripped-down smartphone with pre-loaded trail maps based on OpenStreetMap data and gps turned on whenever powered up that will highlight available exit routes from current location (post-event return required)
3. SOL Thermal Bivy
4. hat
5. gloves
6. thermal socks
7. Sawyer Mini water filter.

Dropped off items will help most lost hikers (23% of SAR events per article quoted earlier) find the way back on their own or stay put until SAR team arrives. This will lower the cost of more expensive rescue missions by reducing the time it will take to locate a hiker and better assessment of hiker's condition even before any rescue party is put together.

Click to expand...

Dropping a map and compass off to someone not able to read the map or use the compass or if they don't know where they are on the map, makes these things useless. If they have a lighter, I guess the map could be used to start a fire. Several years ago, a group went up the Tripyramids, they reached a point, likely, I believe with a sign, and called for assistance. They were just lost and asked about getting to point B. Upon arrival, they called again. When it was clear they had no clue, someone went to get them. If I slip and break a bone in my leg, other than the handwarmers and space blanket, all that stuff is redundant, Not sending a rescue promptly when one of our own broke his femur would have likely ended in his death.

Having an attractive nuisance like the WMNF and then having social media members make it more attractive to the unprepared who see it on FB just make it worst. We can't legislate how many enter or have enough staff to quiz all entrants to the area whenever they show up. (We've all seen day-hikers start late as we descend) The area isn't Denali, or even Whitney (limited access to these also) where you can readily control access. In the WMNF even those who have limited skills and some (not a lot) of common sense will never need assistance other than injury.

It would be great if you could educate them all the people however, that's more of a pipe dream, (I have no idea where that phase comes from but with legalization now more common, if it wasn't that kind of pipe before, it will be for future generations.) then to have drones large enough to carry all those materials or with a range to be centrally dispatched by rescue personal to reach people quickly. Wouldn't drones have issues in winds above a certain MPH, likely much lower than a helicopter.

Yes, military drones or UAV's have great range and payload capabilities, however, they are cost prohibitive for local officials. How many would you need? There are multiple rescues some days. If I want out badly enough and know the system, I can lie to the dispatcher. Pain level 10, can't feel feet or move my legs, that won't show up on a call and I can do a video where I don't move them. If I have a new high-end phone, sure pulse can be detected but on older phones or non-Apple, I could say my heartbeat is fast and irregular. Yes, some drones may pick that up in the future, hopefully Sarah Connor will prevent drones from getting too smart.

In the ADK, in Wilderness areas, drones are not allowed. Saw a summit steward on Hurricane last Friday have to stop a group of hikers who started to fly one. They said they were unaware of the asked how much the fine was and while they did follow the summit steward's instructions eventually, they were a bit argumentative. He had no way of making the four of them comply had they pushed the issue.

On a personal note, as if I hadn't made it clear how I prefer getting away from technology in the woods, I'm not sure which I find more repulsive, being rescued by drone or having Google, Apple or Amazon drive my car. I had the NRA Cold dead fingers belt buckle in my youth & I gave the gun up. I'm not letting go of the steering wheel to have AI drive me around. Maybe I'll revisit that when I start driving to Long Island Sound looking for Mt. Washington from CT.

if the original post was sarcasm, I missed it.

maineguy said:

And, like my neighbor (USAF veteran jet pilot) likes to say: " a helicopter is 10,000 parts flying in close formation around an oil leak"

Click to expand...

Funny how jet pilots are. Had an uncle who parachuted for fun and his uncle who flew planes. My great uncle never understood why anyone would jump out of a perfectly good airplane.

Mike P. said:

Dropping a map and compass off to someone not able to read the map or use the compass or if they don't know where they are on the map, makes these things useless. If they have a lighter, I guess the map could be used to start a fire. Several years ago, a group went up the Tripyramids, they reached a point, likely, I believe with a sign, and called for assistance. They were just lost and asked about getting to point B. Upon arrival, they called again. When it was clear they had no clue, someone went to get them. If I slip and break a bone in my leg, other than the handwarmers and space blanket, all that stuff is redundant, Not sending a rescue promptly when one of our own broke his femur would have likely ended in his death.

Having an attractive nuisance like the WMNF and then having social media members make it more attractive to the unprepared who see it on FB just make it worst. We can't legislate how many enter or have enough staff to quiz all entrants to the area whenever they show up. (We've all seen day-hikers start late as we descend) The area isn't Denali, or even Whitney (limited access to these also) where you can readily control access. In the WMNF even those who have limited skills and some (not a lot) of common sense will never need assistance other than injury.

It would be great if you could educate them all the people however, that's more of a pipe dream, (I have no idea where that phase comes from but with legalization now more common, if it wasn't that kind of pipe before, it will be for future generations.) then to have drones large enough to carry all those materials or with a range to be centrally dispatched by rescue personal to reach people quickly. Wouldn't drones have issues in winds above a certain MPH, likely much lower than a helicopter.

Yes, military drones or UAV's have great range and payload capabilities, however, they are cost prohibitive for local officials. How many would you need? There are multiple rescues some days. If I want out badly enough and know the system, I can lie to the dispatcher. Pain level 10, can't feel feet or move my legs, that won't show up on a call and I can do a video where I don't move them. If I have a new high-end phone, sure pulse can be detected but on older phones or non-Apple, I could say my heartbeat is fast and irregular. Yes, some drones may pick that up in the future, hopefully Sarah Connor will prevent drones from getting too smart.

In the ADK, in Wilderness areas, drones are not allowed. Saw a summit steward on Hurricane last Friday have to stop a group of hikers who started to fly one. They said they were unaware of the asked how much the fine was and while they did follow the summit steward's instructions eventually, they were a bit argumentative. He had no way of making the four of them comply had they pushed the issue.

On a personal note, as if I hadn't made it clear how I prefer getting away from technology in the woods, I'm not sure which I find more repulsive, being rescued by drone or having Google, Apple or Amazon drive my car. I had the NRA Cold dead fingers belt buckle in my youth & I gave the gun up. I'm not letting go of the steering wheel to have AI drive me around. Maybe I'll revisit that when I start driving to Long Island Sound looking for Mt. Washington from CT.

if the original post was sarcasm, I missed it.

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Oh come on man. Admit it. You just can’t wait. Think of the possibilities. https://youtu.be/qM2kQC3V5b8

I agree with Mike P.
If the subject was not aware enough know how to. use and bring proper gear in the first place (map and compass, etc.), then dropping those items is a waste of resources and time.
Education and experience goes both ways. Regarding Drones.... I was crew boss of an Adirodack SAR incident on the far side of a large lake about a year ago. During my team's s first search return pass we located a fanny pack at the base of a tree. No identification or indication of owner within. A couple of NY state troopers showed up and joined us a short time after. Turns out the fanny pack belonged to them. They had dropped it for later retrieval. It would have been nice if they had notified someone of the fact prior to us finding it. About the same time my radio came alive from a forest ranger not far away..... subject located, deceased, dead deer obviously being dragged by him.

I copied the UTM coordinates, plotted on map and GPS. Location was about a half mile away. The two troopers were using a cell phone map to navigate and had no clue how to enter coordinates of any kind. So I led them to the scene. Information processed while my team and I waited. Then we were released to return to our starting point and our separate boats.

Biut wait, the troopers were directed to photograph the scene, which they had forgotten to do while there. They did not want to hike back, so they pulled out a couple of large drones from their boat. It took them a few minutes to assemble one and get it oprational. But again, they had no idea how to enter coordinates into it. Although aparently trained in its operation They were having enough trouble just figuring out how to fly the darn thing. Even if they could program it, there would be no way these two yahoos could fly it down into the tree canopy to the incident scene for a photo. So they gave up and apologized to their boss.

About a year prior to that, I was on another incident where a drone was being employed. Back at the Command Center there was a gigantic large screen monitor set up, observing a sequence of returned photos. The subject wass suspected of not being fully clothed.One photo showed a fleshy colored spot in an opening in the tree over. An argument ensued over whether it was a patch of bare sand, or if it was a naked person. So a ground team had to be sent to the spot, only to discover that it was dirt. The subject was actually found several days later about a mile away, dead.

The best ranger agreed on use of drones may be over shallow bodies of water, especially if very shallow and surrounded by logs, brush and shoreline debris, making approach on foot difficult and dangerous, and too shallow for divers.

I'm with TEO. Take the monies out of New Hampshire residents pocket and buy all the SAR dudes one of these. https://youtu.be/ZjYp3pcP9B0

Since the idea of billing people doesn't sit well with so many, I thought about an alternative on my hike yesterday. While me and my dog spend most of our hikes, talking about things like world peace and how to feed all the homeless, we do occasional have a round table discussion. I proposed search and rescue and he bit. I explained the current state of affairs and he shook his head, lifted his leg, then stopped and offered this. Just stop all search and rescue for at least one year, post this stoppage on social media where all the future victims reside. Once you get a few bodies, take really good close ups of the rotting corpse and then post them at all the trailheads and across social media as well, with the Slogan, " This could be you". It won't take long for the media to pick up the story and before you know it, you have an educated public on the potential of hiking unprepared.

P.S. Hey Tom R. don't fret, when a racehorse breaks his leg, they shoot with no hesitation, it's the right thing to do.

sierra said:

Since the idea of billing people doesn't sit well with so many, I thought about an alternative on my hike yesterday.

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I also thought of an alternative, which is to sell rights for corporations to name the various 4000 footers after their companies. Kind of like what professional sports teams do. For example, if a hiker needs a rescue when hiking up Mount TD Bank (formerly Mount Hale), then the corporation pays the bill for rescue.

jfb said:

I also thought of an alternative, which is to sell rights for corporations to name the various 4000 footers after their companies. Kind of like what professional sports teams do. For example, if a hiker needs a rescue when hiking up Mount TD Bank (formerly Mount Hale), then the corporation pays the bill for rescue.

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Sadly, this probably would be an effective and doable option. BTW, I hate it.

Sierra, haven't virtually all drivers seen horrific DUI crash videos and funerals of people impacted by DUi accidents and yet....

skiguy said:

Oh come on man. Admit it. You just can’t wait. Think of the possibilities. https://youtu.be/qM2kQC3V5b8

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The video is two years old and the comment attached pretty much summed that up: "Just a quick question, Where are they supposed to put their paramedic equipment?" Since someone mentioned putting horses down, they could carry a handgun and a quick assessment could be made, if they were reckless, put them down. The first paramedic should be EMT Dredd. Actually, something like a "Lawmaster" would be a better option for rapid EMT deployment. In the movie they were as reliable as jetpacks have been too.

Mike P. said:

The video is two years old and the comment attached pretty much summed that up: "Just a quick question, Where are they supposed to put their paramedic equipment?" Since someone mentioned putting horses down, they could carry a handgun and a quick assessment could be made, if they were reckless, put them down. The first paramedic should be EMT Dredd. Actually, something like a "Lawmaster" would be a better option for rapid EMT deployment. In the movie they were as reliable as jetpacks have been too.

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What the heck does having paramedic equipment have to do with having a Pizza delivered to Guyout on a Saturday night?

peakbagger said:

Would it happen in NH? S&R tells someone to hunker down for the night

Click to expand...

Not quite the exact same situation, but similar, and in NH, although quite a few years ago:

Mid-August, 1976 - At age 19 I was nominally the "adult in charge" of 6 scouts in their mid/late teens from a few different troops on a week-long backpacking trip in the Whites. First a 3-day, 2 night backpack, then a few day hikes.

We camped as a group, hiked in three groups of 2-2-3. At the end of the last day of the backpack, one group of 2 didn't show up at the trailhead. Around 6pm, I found a pay phone, called the number on the phone placard for "Police" (this pre-dating both cell phones and 911), and told them I had two overdue hikers.

I was asked about their experience and equipment. I responded that they were experienced backpackers and equipped for a couple nights backpacking.

I was then told that they "probably got tired and hunkered down for the night" and advised I should check the trailhead in the morning.

Did that and sure enough, they showed at the trailhead early in the morning. They had decided to take a different (less difficult) route than had been planned, got fatigued nevertheless, and decided to set up camp and continue in the morning. I was a bit mad at them, but happy everyone was OK. Really was my fault for not keeping the whole group together. Called the police back to let them know everyone was safe. I had the impression that they had not been particularly concerned.

Wonder what would happen if I made the same call today...

TomK

Mike P. said:

Sadly, this probably would be an effective and doable option. BTW, I hate it.

Sierra, haven't virtually all drivers seen horrific DUI crash videos and funerals of people impacted by DUi accidents and yet....

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Actually, that is a great and valid point. A 20 something female just had a pretty bad DUI crash on 101. My first thought, I cannot believe people still drive drunk. Put aside the ads against it, the constant barrage of crashes in the news, with all the ride sharing apps out there, there is virtually no reason left to drive drunk. Yet........... It's just so selfish. I guess billing people for SAR just isn't something people want done, I'm still scratching my head over it, but I fully realize my thoughts are not mainstream in many topics. That's fine, if I ever get rescued, I won't pay the cost as was my original plan. I'll let Fish and Game figure that out. Now that the Pandemic is over, it will be interesting to see how the winter shakes out. With the popularity of hiking, a bad winter could really keep SAR busy. I'll take 4 deaths and give 3 to 1 for 100 bucks to anyone on VFTT.

TomK said:

Not quite the exact same situation, but similar, and in NH, although quite a few years ago:

Mid-August, 1976 - At age 19 I was nominally the "adult in charge" of 6 scouts in their mid/late teens from a few different troops on a week-long backpacking trip in the Whites. First a 3-day, 2 night backpack, then a few day hikes.

We camped as a group, hiked in three groups of 2-2-3. At the end of the last day of the backpack, one group of 2 didn't show up at the trailhead. Around 6pm, I found a pay phone, called the number on the phone placard for "Police" (this pre-dating both cell phones and 911), and told them I had two overdue hikers.

I was asked about their experience and equipment. I responded that they were experienced backpackers and equipped for a couple nights backpacking.

I was then told that they "probably got tired and hunkered down for the night" and advised I should check the trailhead in the morning.

Did that and sure enough, they showed at the trailhead early in the morning. They had decided to take a different (less difficult) route than had been planned, got fatigued nevertheless, and decided to set up camp and continue in the morning. I was a bit mad at them, but happy everyone was OK. Really was my fault for not keeping the whole group together. Called the police back to let them know everyone was safe. I had the impression that they had not been particularly concerned.

Wonder what would happen if I made the same call today...

TomK

Click to expand...

This past summer, I was coming down to Mill Brook rd from the Horn off the Kilkenny trail. There were about a dozen teenagers hanging around at the road. A young girl approached me and asked for a ride to town to find a phone. Turns out they took a wrong turn and came down the wrong side of the mountain. I asked her age, she replied 16 and I said there was no way I was driving her anywhere, did she have a male trip leader with her? she went and got him. I drove him into town and he called his group to come get the kids. No harm, no foul and no need for outside help.

sierra said:

Actually, that is a great and valid point. A 20 something female just had a pretty bad DUI crash on 101. My first thought, I cannot believe people still drive drunk. Put aside the ads against it, the constant barrage of crashes in the news, with all the ride sharing apps out there, there is virtually no reason left to drive drunk. Yet........... It's just so selfish. I guess billing people for SAR just isn't something people want done, I'm still scratching my head over it, but I fully realize my thoughts are not mainstream in many topics. That's fine, if I ever get rescued, I won't pay the cost as was my original plan. I'll let Fish and Game figure that out. Now that the Pandemic is over, it will be interesting to see how the winter shakes out. With the popularity of hiking, a bad winter could really keep SAR busy. I'll take 4 deaths and give 3 to 1 for 100 bucks to anyone on VFTT.

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We can only base our opinions on what we have seen and our experiences. While never arrested, weekends from 17-21 (18 was the age) often involved bad decisions on drinking and driving. (Like accidents, some who drink and drive may get caught the first time and others go years or decades without being caught).

I'm surprised when I see people in their 40's and 50's doing it. (Yes, there have been some high-profile cases recently.) Picking the over/under on fatalities seems a bit dark, is this the DC universe? I used figure out which winter activity would have more, hiker & climbing, skiing or snowmobiles. Does Fan Duel have an over/under on WMNF Fatalities, they have everything else. Maybe if they have a presence on the Dark Web.

Mike P. said:

We can only base our opinions on what we have seen and our experiences. While never arrested, weekends from 17-21 (18 was the age) often involved bad decisions on drinking and driving. (Like accidents, some who drink and drive may get caught the first time and others go years or decades without being caught).

I'm surprised when I see people in their 40's and 50's doing it. (Yes, there have been some high-profile cases recently.) Picking the over/under on fatalities seems a bit dark, is this the DC universe? I used figure out which winter activity would have more, hiker & climbing, skiing or snowmobiles. Does Fan Duel have an over/under on WMNF Fatalities, they have everything else. Maybe if they have a presence on the Dark Web.

Click to expand...

These days people just drop Acid, take all their clothes off, go sit on the roof of an AMC Hut, and then wait for F&G to come walk them out of the woods. Alot more fun and safer than drinking and driving.