Page 8 of 14 FirstFirst ... 456789101112 ... LastLast
Results 106 to 120 of 201

Thread: NH Fish And Game Seeking Help With Missing Hiker

  1. #106
    Senior Member B the Hiker's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Location
    Middletown, CT
    Posts
    1,099
    Quote Originally Posted by DayTrip View Post
    I know you have a very AMC-centric way of thinking about everything and I'm sure their programs are fantastic but I don't think the issue is lack of resources available to hikers. It is no desire to gather the information. If people won't do some basic, free research online I don't think a $230, 3 Day AMC Map and Compass workshop is going to be the answer. AMC, REI and many others offer these courses and have been for awhile. It isn't exactly a secret. I'm not sure how many people can afford to take a course like this, even if the content is outstanding. You can teach yourself these skills pretty easily with online tutorials and a little practice for $0 or the nominal cost of many outstanding books on the topic. That requires effort however....
    I love the fact that you think a map and compass course costs $230.

    I also respectfully disagree that people voluntarily take courses without being prodded to do so, usually by a friend. I'm organizing a WFA course this weekend. My hiking partners are taking it because I personally invited them to do so. Would advertising a class lead to more people taking it? I believe it would.

    Brian

  2. #107
    Senior Member maineguy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2003
    Location
    Maine
    Posts
    766
    Quote Originally Posted by B the Hiker View Post
    I love the fact that you think a map and compass course costs $230.

    I also respectfully disagree that people voluntarily take courses without being prodded to do so, usually by a friend. I'm organizing a WFA course this weekend. My hiking partners are taking it because I personally invited them to do so. Would advertising a class lead to more people taking it? I believe it would.

    Brian
    This page lists some AMC courses one of which is a 3 day map and compass course. Looks like it costs $210/230

    https://amcnh.org/excursions-worksho...spring-school/

  3. #108
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    May 2013
    Posts
    3,447
    Quote Originally Posted by B the Hiker View Post
    I love the fact that you think a map and compass course costs $230.

    I also respectfully disagree that people voluntarily take courses without being prodded to do so, usually by a friend. I'm organizing a WFA course this weekend. My hiking partners are taking it because I personally invited them to do so. Would advertising a class lead to more people taking it? I believe it would.

    Brian
    When I Googled the AMC Map And Compass Workshop it brought me to a page and the cost was $230. Their website sucks actually. If that is not accurate then I'd say the AMC should look into that. I'm sure I'm not the only one who's done that and said "**** that". Most courses I've looked at online were $79-$99 and involve travel somewhere, which might be trivial in your economic universe but is a barrier for many in terms of $$$ and time of work.

  4. #109
    Senior Member TEO's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2005
    Location
    New England
    Posts
    980
    Quote Originally Posted by DayTrip View Post
    When I Googled the AMC Map And Compass Workshop it brought me to a page and the cost was $230. Their website sucks actually. If that is not accurate then I'd say the AMC should look into that. I'm sure I'm not the only one who's done that and said "**** that". Most courses I've looked at online were $79-$99 and involve travel somewhere, which might be trivial in your economic universe but is a barrier for many in terms of $$$ and time of work.
    Search for "map and compass" on the AMC website, and you will see that the intro class is $150. However, you are correct that, especially when travel and lodging is added, the cost is not trivial. And, are the people who are getting into hiking today the type who would see the value in taking a map and compass course?

    My suggestion of regulating the number of new hikers is starting to look better and better, no? In addition to the other requirements needed to gain full-hiker status, you could mandate pass ing a map and compass course. ;-)

  5. #110
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Sep 2003
    Location
    Gorham NH
    Posts
    7,589
    Basic map and compass is pretty simple, give me a couple of motivated folks, some compasses with built in declination compensation and a day in the woods on a bushwhack and at the end of the day, they will know the basics. The biggest factor is motivation, its a lot easier to follow the beep and technology is infallible so why make it more difficult by using map and compass?

  6. #111
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    May 2013
    Posts
    3,447
    Quote Originally Posted by TEO View Post
    Search for "map and compass" on the AMC website, and you will see that the intro class is $150. However, you are correct that, especially when travel and lodging is added, the cost is not trivial. And, are the people who are getting into hiking today the type who would see the value in taking a map and compass course?

    My suggestion of regulating the number of new hikers is starting to look better and better, no? In addition to the other requirements needed to gain full-hiker status, you could mandate pass ing a map and compass course. ;-)
    The link I clicked on did say it included lodging and meals. I didn't investigate it further so I don't know if there was a better breakdown. Even at $150 I think a lot of people are not doing it.

  7. #112
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    May 2013
    Posts
    3,447
    Quote Originally Posted by peakbagger View Post
    The biggest factor is motivation, its a lot easier to follow the beep and technology is infallible so why make it more difficult by using map and compass?
    Cell phones are engrained in the lives of many now and it is only getting more pervasive. I don't know what, if any, answer there will be to this problem but I'd pretty much guarantee that if a solution is found it will be cell phone oriented solution. It's what most people want now so if you're going to reach a large group you need to tailor it to what THEY want, not what you think they want. (I'm generically using "you" here - not specifically directed at peakbagger).

  8. #113
    Senior Member hikerbrian's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Location
    Sharon, MA
    Posts
    748
    Does anyone here think a map and compass (and requisite knowledge) would have saved this young lady? Navigating by map and compass in heavy wind and low visibility above treeline is extremely challenging. And unless she knew exactly where she was, M&C would have only given her a general indication of the right direction to travel. And that's assuming she would have had the mental acuity, finger dexterity, and inner fortitude to get a good bearing in those conditions and in that state. Big assumptions.

    In this particular case, I think a beefy phone charger could have helped, but that's pretty speculative on my part.
    Sure. Why not.

  9. #114
    Senior Member skiguy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2004
    Location
    MWV NH
    Posts
    3,396
    Quote Originally Posted by DayTrip View Post
    Cell phones are engrained in the lives of many now and it is only getting more pervasive. I don't know what, if any, answer there will be to this problem but I'd pretty much guarantee that if a solution is found it will be cell phone oriented solution. It's what most people want now so if you're going to reach a large group you need to tailor it to what THEY want, not what you think they want. (I'm generically using "you" here - not specifically directed at peakbagger).
    Lotís of good info if you just Google a bit. Note:This only works if you have a cell phone, tablet, laptop, or work station. Here is just one example: https://youtu.be/gn_yY6L8wy4
    "I'm getting up and going to work everyday and I am stoked. That does not suck!"__Shane McConkey

  10. #115
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    May 2013
    Posts
    3,447
    Quote Originally Posted by hikerbrian View Post
    Does anyone here think a map and compass (and requisite knowledge) would have saved this young lady? Navigating by map and compass in heavy wind and low visibility above treeline is extremely challenging. And unless she knew exactly where she was, M&C would have only given her a general indication of the right direction to travel. And that's assuming she would have had the mental acuity, finger dexterity, and inner fortitude to get a good bearing in those conditions and in that state. Big assumptions.

    In this particular case, I think a beefy phone charger could have helped, but that's pretty speculative on my part.
    Nope. That would have far down the list to me behind proper footwear, proper clothing, traction, a headlamp although I suppose you could argue if she had those things she would have been emboldened to continue even further versus safely retreating. If the phone could have been charged she could have called or texted for help, or if she had an InReach or PLB or something that would probably have been the only thing that could have made a difference. She was hell bent on getting those peaks by her birthday.

  11. #116
    Senior Member Nessmuk's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2004
    Location
    western 'daks
    Posts
    947
    Quote Originally Posted by DayTrip View Post
    I know you have a very AMC-centric way of thinking about everything and I'm sure their programs are fantastic but I don't think the issue is lack of resources available to hikers. It is no desire to gather the information. If people won't do some basic, free research online I don't think a $230, 3 Day AMC Map and Compass workshop is going to be the answer. AMC, REI and many others offer these courses and have been for awhile. It isn't exactly a secret. I'm not sure how many people can afford to take a course like this, even if the content is outstanding. You can teach yourself these skills pretty easily with online tutorials and a little practice for $0 or the nominal cost of many outstanding books on the topic. That requires effort however....
    Day Trip is correct (with bold emphasis added by me).

    I'll come at the problem from two directions. I have self taught myself and practiced precision navigation methods beginning more than fifty years ago, beginning with what my father taught me as a young boy while hunting with him in backcountry areas he knew in great detail without question of where he ever was. I became an Air Force flight navigator and instructor/evaluator back in those pre-GPS Cold War dinosaur days when navigators were actually valued in aircraft. The mindset from air to ground navigation is not all that different as I learned to solo hike and backpack off trail in remote areas by myself. I learned and enjoyed applying my increasing knowledge of map and compass and thoughtful effort getting where ever I wanted to go in the woods.

    Enter Boy Scout National Camp School and working with the NYSDEC and BSA to develop a training program for wannabe summer high adventure wilderness guides wishing employment with BSA Adirondack resident camps, leading week long paid treks for scouts and their adult leaders. For 30 years I worked as an instructor for candidate guides during the annual 8-day guide training program. My students were typically college age with varying levels of previous experience and skills in the outdoors and with BSA. Some had innate impressive skill and ability, others not so much. Keeping in mind that they would be responsible for safely guiding children in the woods, certification to work as a trek leader guide is not guaranteed. Out of a typical class of up to 25 trek leader students, two or three failures resulting in non employment is not uncommon. After the introduction of GPS and especially cell phones, attitudes and skills changed significantly. With my specialty of land navigation, students lucky enough to get me as their woodland instructor are in for a good challenge of off-trail backcountry navigation trials using map and compass only, no GPS and no cell phone allowed. I have failed students for cheating with a sneak peek at a hidden GPS, or for demonstrating no aptitude of learning how to navigate when all the tools and navigation clues were right in front of them in plain sight. I would happily provide separate basic GPS instruction later, but not during the core backcountry navigation skills development.

    Simultaneously spending several years as a SAR volunteer and then certification by NYSDEC as a SAR crew boss. I was eventually recruited by NYS Homeland Security to periodically teach a formal land navigation class to state law enforcement, fire, EMS, and SAR team members. The program course was initially developed by recently returned from war zone military members as my co-instructors. i inserted much of my own methodology. Many of our more seasoned students indicated they had prior military navigation experience, although when questioned most indicated they were "a little rusty", a severe understatement in many cases. The course was at first advertised as including GPS training, but doing that just did not work out well. Even though the state provided a basic low level GPS unit to train on, every student had brought their own individual GPS unit and would approach an instructor with questions about how to set it up an read it. Although every unit in the end provides the same answer, we instructors could not be an expert in exact operation of all of the dozens of different commercial models of GPS units. Doing so simply took too much time from learning other needed course work skills. So we dropped GPS segment from the syllabus, focusing instead on traditional map and compass and terrain association.

    To this day, although especially for SAR where GPS is a necessary tool, I practice GPS skill during SAR incidents, when I recreationally head into the woods myself, it is map and compass only as my preferred method of enjoying my travels. it is often said that land navigation is a perishable skill without frequent practiced usage, and I am determined to not let my traditional map and compass navigation skills get stale.
    "She's all my fancy painted her, she's lovely, she is light. She waltzes on the waves by day and rests with me at night." - Nessmuk, Forest and Stream, July 21, 1880 [of the Wood Drake Canoe built for him by Rushton]

  12. #117
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    May 2013
    Posts
    3,447
    Quote Originally Posted by Nessmuk View Post
    To this day, although especially for SAR where GPS is a necessary tool, I practice GPS skill during SAR incidents, when I recreationally head into the woods myself, it is map and compass only as my preferred method of enjoying my travels. it is often said that land navigation is a perishable skill without frequent practiced usage, and I am determined to not let my traditional map and compass navigation skills get stale.
    I can't speak for anyone else, but I find I prefer to do both map and GPS together. I learned first via map and compass and later got a GPS and eventually a cell phone app (Gaia Pro). It took me awhile to comprehend what my GPS was telling me based on what I was doing with a map and compass but once I did I found it to be very useful. GPS and GPS apps are a lot easier to use in crappy weather and it makes a lot of tasks far easier. In particular, I love how the GPS or GPS app automatically tells you what direction a waypoint is. You can of course do that with the map and compass but it is instantaneous with the unit/app. Like you pointed out though, if you do this for too long the actual map and compass knowledge gets foggy.

  13. #118
    Senior Member Nessmuk's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2004
    Location
    western 'daks
    Posts
    947
    As i tried to imply, when i recreate, I do not necessarily go into the woods to make my navigatiuon travel easy and fast. My enjoyment and pleasure of being there comes from testing myself old school with traditional navigation methods, making the inevitable mistakes, learning from them, and never worrying about making that same mistake ever again. My version of "smoothing it". An earlier post mentioned surprise at newbies not knowing where the were, even when on a trail. I pride myself and take great pleasure in knowing with great precision where I am at all times, on or off the trail (but mostly when off) and how I get from one place to another.
    I do use GPS units when canoe racing, particularly when on the Yukon 1000 mile, for preplanned fastest route travel or when racing in familiar areas mainly for speed montoring. And of course it is a mandatory tool for when recording track and meter point accuracy of recording findings when on SAR incidents.

    “We do not go to the green woods and crystal waters to rough it, we go to smooth it. We get it rough enough at home.” Woodcraft, George Washington Sears, aka Nessmuk.
    "She's all my fancy painted her, she's lovely, she is light. She waltzes on the waves by day and rests with me at night." - Nessmuk, Forest and Stream, July 21, 1880 [of the Wood Drake Canoe built for him by Rushton]

  14. #119
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    May 2013
    Posts
    3,447
    Quote Originally Posted by Nessmuk View Post
    As i tried to imply, when i recreate, I do not necessarily go into the woods to make my navigatiuon travel easy and fast.
    That point was not lost on me. I don't think anyone on this forum doubts your commitment and enthusiasm for navigating "the hard way". I can respect that 100%.

    Enjoying the process is often much more rewarding than the end result and provides more knowledge as you indicated. I remember the first time I did a map and compass "exercise" at the local park. I was frustrated that I kept coming out to the side of my intended target. I know the area well so I knew I was wrong as I was walking but I kept at it following what I believed was the correct direction until after about an hour I discovered I hadn't set the declination on my compass. That "duh" moment has stayed with me ever since.

  15. #120
    Senior Member Nessmuk's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2004
    Location
    western 'daks
    Posts
    947
    Quote Originally Posted by DayTrip View Post
    That "duh" moment has stayed with me ever since.
    I can recall and poin to any number of those moments in my earler days. I never forgot what my navigator flight instructor once told me.... "All navigators will make mistakes. The difference between the better navigators and those not so successful is in quickly recognizing the mistake and how quickly it can be corrected." That philosophy has stayed with me and worked well for me ever since.IMany times after completing a backcountry trip i would recall mistakes I made and learning fom them I resolved to never do that again. But I felt I learned much more after those trips than on trips where everything went perfectly well. Thankfully with time and age, I think, I have learned to avoid most of the bad stuff now.
    "She's all my fancy painted her, she's lovely, she is light. She waltzes on the waves by day and rests with me at night." - Nessmuk, Forest and Stream, July 21, 1880 [of the Wood Drake Canoe built for him by Rushton]

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •