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Thread: NH Fish And Game Seeking Help With Missing Hiker

  1. #136
    Senior Member sierra's Avatar
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    I find it interesting how many people seem effected by this girl's death. An Asian man dies up there last year and while it was covered and talked about, it was nothing like the scale this has been hashed over. I guess young and beautiful really does count in our society. Two points if I may. One, this is not an isolated case, she is one of many I have heard about in my years in the Whites. Secondly, you cannot prevent these accidents from happening. The porous borders of the Whites combined with the content on social media, will keep a constant supply of novices showing up unprepared full of vigor and enthusiasm. I swear if I see one more trip report for The Ridge, I'll jump off the former Old Man site. AS far as the AMC goes, I'll spare you my pontification on why I never joined and never will. My only AMC comment is that for a nonprofit, they sure charge high prices for every single thing they offer. Granted most of the rich white folks from Boston are not complaining, so maybe they are simply not aware of the issue that people of modest means face. REI offers some nice free clinics and frankly there is enough free material out there, that there is zero reason to not be prepared in any regard. I taught myself map and compass, I know just enough to get by. Got lost twice out west and made it out in one piece, would I go bushwhack in Alaska? Hell no. Most people have a threshold of suffering, I think in many cases its reasonably high, in some cases its very low. People have survived incredible things, yet some people don't last long at all. I think the most dangerous part of the mountains is how God damn awful they can be, seriously, I've had two incidents that were enough to have me question my fortitude. In the end, I feared death more than suffering.

  2. #137
    Senior Member skiguy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NHClimber View Post
    Between a map, GPS, smartphone, basic understanding of where you are in the geography of the area (e.g., streams, drainages, other prominent features), and a general sense of direction based on the sun, it is actually pretty difficult to get lost unless above tree line and in a whiteout. Of course, the latter is where most problems can be expected to occur. I'm a nerd so I tend to know where I am on a map right down to the tenth of a mile. It's sort of a game I play in my head and I'm pretty accurate. Years reading maps while in the latrine!
    I agree. Although you are talking about acquired skill sets. Even the sitting on the latrine part. Donít laugh there are books about that crap. Problem is it is easier to just get on FB and start pecking away at oneís keyboard. The point, click, give it to me now and I donít want to do any work for it hiker is and has been here for awhile. Itís all about instant gratification rather than taking the time out to truly learn something.
    "I'm getting up and going to work everyday and I am stoked. That does not suck!"__Shane McConkey

  3. #138
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    Quote Originally Posted by sierra View Post
    I find it interesting how many people seem effected by this girl's death. .
    I think this is another element of the social media universe. People dramatize everything, try to out do and one-up each other, portray themselves as such giving and caring people, and 90 seconds after they post they're already thinking about someone or something else. I find it totally fake honestly but that's just me. For me the deluge of "So thankful for what you do" and "Thoughts and prayers" comments ring the most hollow. It's like you have to post this to show what a good person you are. Maybe if you're thankful instead of a comment make a donation to a SAR group or buy a Hike Safe card. So many people think a Facebook comment is "action" and making a real difference when 99% of the time it's just useless noise.

    Maybe I'm just a heartless bastard but I don't understand people being deeply impacted by a complete stranger. I can sympathize for the situation, the parents/survivors, etc but I'm not in bed for 3 days crying with the shades drawn. It sucks but I don't know the person. It's the same phenomenon in the positive direction with idol worship of sports figures, music persona, etc. People getting hysterical screaming and crying, passing out, etc. I'll never understand that level of fanaticism from someone you only know from the TV.

  4. #139
    Senior Member skiguy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DayTrip View Post
    I think this is another element of the social media universe. People dramatize everything, try to out do and one-up each other, portray themselves as such giving and caring people, and 90 seconds after they post they're already thinking about someone or something else. I find it totally fake honestly but that's just me. For me the deluge of "So thankful for what you do" and "Thoughts and prayers" comments ring the most hollow. It's like you have to post this to show what a good person you are. Maybe if you're thankful instead of a comment make a donation to a SAR group or buy a Hike Safe card. So many people think a Facebook comment is "action" and making a real difference when 99% of the time it's just useless noise.

    Maybe I'm just a heartless bastard but I don't understand people being deeply impacted by a complete stranger. I can sympathize for the situation, the parents/survivors, etc but I'm not in bed for 3 days crying with the shades drawn. It sucks but I don't know the person. It's the same phenomenon in the positive direction with idol worship of sports figures, music persona, etc. People getting hysterical screaming and crying, passing out, etc. I'll never understand that level of fanaticism from someone you only know from the TV.
    Wait until Ticketmaster starts selling parking permits for FW/OBP.
    "I'm getting up and going to work everyday and I am stoked. That does not suck!"__Shane McConkey

  5. #140
    Senior Member sierra's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DayTrip View Post
    I think this is another element of the social media universe. People dramatize everything, try to out do and one-up each other, portray themselves as such giving and caring people, and 90 seconds after they post they're already thinking about someone or something else. I find it totally fake honestly but that's just me. For me the deluge of "So thankful for what you do" and "Thoughts and prayers" comments ring the most hollow. It's like you have to post this to show what a good person you are. Maybe if you're thankful instead of a comment make a donation to a SAR group or buy a Hike Safe card. So many people think a Facebook comment is "action" and making a real difference when 99% of the time it's just useless noise.

    Maybe I'm just a heartless bastard but I don't understand people being deeply impacted by a complete stranger. I can sympathize for the situation, the parents/survivors, etc but I'm not in bed for 3 days crying with the shades drawn. It sucks but I don't know the person. It's the same phenomenon in the positive direction with idol worship of sports figures, music persona, etc. People getting hysterical screaming and crying, passing out, etc. I'll never understand that level of fanaticism from someone you only know from the TV.
    Too funny, but so true.

  6. #141
    Senior Member Mike P.'s Avatar
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    I think it's more the age of Emily than Gender and whether she was pretty or not. The fact mom drove her to her date with destiny is even more heartbreaking as a parent of two kids roughly her age. To me this feels more like Derek Tinkham's death. Derek went with his friend who did all the pumping up of the trip and the mountains that people can get in FB groups. He blindly followed his friend into the teeth of a bad storm trusting his friend. Emily was solo but she blindly trusted that her summer experience would be enough on a cold but snow free November Day, the weekend before when she probably planned her trip it was 70.

    While bad weather can happen anytime, especially above treeline, April, October and November may be the most unpredictable, especially for those with limited experience in late fall and early Spring. In April as we know, trailheads may be bare but rotting snow and your first lessons on the monorail are tiresome. In the fall, cool temps at the trailhead may bring winter-like conditions higher up. (I know for my first few years, "winter-like", was in my vocabulary for snowy hikes in late November and early December. Over time, I dropped it as those conditions are just expected 30-50 days before or after the actual season.)

    All deaths hurt the families of the deceased. No parent should outlive their child. Childhood deaths are even sadder, we however are on a hiking board so outdoors are what we know. (You don't want be providing medical info on cancer) Yes, an Asian man died and that was sad. (off the top of my head, 53? YO, still too soon but over 2.5x Emily's age)

    We know this will happen again, however, should we try and get knowledge out more. Does that mean opening VFTT to new members without the referral process. Like you all, but Day-trip is like the newbie and he's been here and hiking 15-20 years.

    Should we open the ivory tower and let others enter? Could the links in FB be more prominent? VFTT is the last link. Could the Higher summits conditions always be on top of the page? Right now, it's just a selfie page for bragging and asking the same question over and over. In the 90's Dave M. and I must have answered Mt. Washington questions on the AMC boards 2-5 times a week

    Should the hiking community try and do more? Are FaceBook groups part of the hiking community? More importantly, do they think they are? (I'd guess yes, as it may provide the owners of thinking they are contributing to something other than Zuck's Products to sell to his customers. As TCD mentioned, FB users are the product.)
    Have fun & be safe
    Mike P.

  7. #142
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    It's the same phenomenon in the positive direction with idol worship of sports figures, music persona, etc. People getting hysterical screaming and crying, passing out, etc. I'll never understand that level of fanaticism from someone you only know from the TV.
    And politicians. So many people idolize them. Never will understand that. Meet the new boss...Same as the old boss...

    Resist the drama folks. Resist the drama. And resist the virtue signaling. But it is ok to have some level of compassion.

  8. #143
    Senior Member TEO's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike P. View Post
    I think it's more the age of Emily than Gender and whether she was pretty or not. The fact mom drove her to her date with destiny is even more heartbreaking as a parent of two kids roughly her age. [snip] Emily was solo but she blindly trusted that her summer experience would be enough on a cold but snow free November Day, the weekend before when she probably planned her trip it was 70.
    I agree. She was just a kid and had no idea what she was getting in to.

  9. #144
    Senior Member iAmKrzys's Avatar
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    This hiker being missing was publicized in a large Facebook group early on, so attention was building up fast as people were reading about it (FB pushes trending post to the top of the feed) and there was no quick conclusion to the SAR effort. I'm not really surprised that a lot of people felt compelled to comment on this.

    Also, I can see how millennials would find it easier to relate, kind of like: "Oh $&!#, it could be me! I do similar stuff every other week!"

  10. #145
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    Quote Originally Posted by DayTrip View Post
    Is that something you have documented in any way that is shareable and if so would you share it? I frequent the Presi's on most of my hikes and have some notes on places I get water but a comprehensive list would be a great tool. Understand completely if you'd prefer not to.
    I don't have anything documented, no. I'll see if I can find the gps tracks from Gaia. We did use it for some of our hikes to make sure we were where we thought we were. Mostly, we were right.

  11. #146
    Senior Member sierra's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike P. View Post
    I think it's more the age of Emily than Gender and whether she was pretty or not. The fact mom drove her to her date with destiny is even more heartbreaking as a parent of two kids roughly her age. To me this feels more like Derek Tinkham's death. Derek went with his friend who did all the pumping up of the trip and the mountains that people can get in FB groups. He blindly followed his friend into the teeth of a bad storm trusting his friend. Emily was solo but she blindly trusted that her summer experience would be enough on a cold but snow free November Day, the weekend before when she probably planned her trip it was 70.

    While bad weather can happen anytime, especially above treeline, April, October and November may be the most unpredictable, especially for those with limited experience in late fall and early Spring. In April as we know, trailheads may be bare but rotting snow and your first lessons on the monorail are tiresome. In the fall, cool temps at the trailhead may bring winter-like conditions higher up. (I know for my first few years, "winter-like", was in my vocabulary for snowy hikes in late November and early December. Over time, I dropped it as those conditions are just expected 30-50 days before or after the actual season.)

    All deaths hurt the families of the deceased. No parent should outlive their child. Childhood deaths are even sadder, we however are on a hiking board so outdoors are what we know. (You don't want be providing medical info on cancer) Yes, an Asian man died and that was sad. (off the top of my head, 53? YO, still too soon but over 2.5x Emily's age)

    We know this will happen again, however, should we try and get knowledge out more. Does that mean opening VFTT to new members without the referral process. Like you all, but Day-trip is like the newbie and he's been here and hiking 15-20 years.

    Should we open the ivory tower and let others enter? Could the links in FB be more prominent? VFTT is the last link. Could the Higher summits conditions always be on top of the page? Right now, it's just a selfie page for bragging and asking the same question over and over. In the 90's Dave M. and I must have answered Mt. Washington questions on the AMC boards 2-5 times a week

    Should the hiking community try and do more? Are FaceBook groups part of the hiking community? More importantly, do they think they are? (I'd guess yes, as it may provide the owners of thinking they are contributing to something other than Zuck's Products to sell to his customers. As TCD mentioned, FB users are the product.)
    I am not sure how much more information can be available to learn what you should know? You think Emily would have come to VFTT to learn how to hike? It's not the lack of information that's the problem, it's that these inexperienced hikers, don't even know, what they don't know. I've honestly given this some serious thought and I have no idea how to prevent these accidents, none.

  12. #147
    Senior Member iAmKrzys's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DayTrip View Post
    Is that something you have documented in any way that is shareable and if so would you share it? I frequent the Presi's on most of my hikes and have some notes on places I get water but a comprehensive list would be a great tool. Understand completely if you'd prefer not to.
    Some water sources are marked on OpenStreetMap - they show up as little blue circles in current map visualization. For example here: https://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=1...0997/-71.31280 you should be able to find Spaulding Spring and Gulfside Spring. The problem is that they are not easy to find in a systematic way. One thing you can try is to select area of them map and use "Export" button - it will dump raw data behind the rendered map in XML format which you can load into a text editor and search for a word "spring". If you find it, you will get coordinates as part of the record like this:

    <node id="6993406550" visible="true" version="1" changeset="77339781" timestamp="2019-11-20T18:07:43Z" user="HikesNH" uid="6921131" lat="44.3116913" lon="-71.3128582">
    <tag k="name" v="Spaulding Spring"/>
    <tag k="natural" v="spring"/>
    </node>

    or

    <node id="6993434722" visible="true" version="1" changeset="77339781" timestamp="2019-11-20T18:07:43Z" user="HikesNH" uid="6921131" lat="44.3097323" lon="-71.3125039">
    <tag k="name" v="Gulfside Spring"/>
    <tag k="natural" v="spring"/>
    </node>

    Apologies for a thread drift.
    Click image for larger version. 

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    Last edited by iAmKrzys; 11-30-2022 at 10:17 PM.

  13. #148
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    Quote Originally Posted by egilbe View Post
    I don't have anything documented, no. I'll see if I can find the gps tracks from Gaia. We did use it for some of our hikes to make sure we were where we thought we were. Mostly, we were right.
    Don't trouble yourself with all that. The way you worded it I thought maybe you had a list of waypoint coordinates or something for sources. That is what I used to do when I was really tracking my hiking activity but my official list is lost somewhere in the bowels of my computer. Probably something I should start over with now that my memory is starting to fade with age....

  14. #149
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    Quote Originally Posted by iAmKrzys View Post
    Some water sources are marked on OpenStreetMap - they show up as little blue circles in current map visualization. For example here: https://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=1...0997/-71.31280 you should be able to find Spaulding Spring and Gulfside Spring. The problem is that they are not easy to find in a systematic way. One thing you can try is to select area of them map and use "Export" button - it will dump raw data behind the rendered map in XML format which you can load into a text editor and search for a word "spring". If you find it, you will get coordinates as part of the record like this:

    <node id="6993406550" visible="true" version="1" changeset="77339781" timestamp="2019-11-20T18:07:43Z" user="HikesNH" uid="6921131" lat="44.3116913" lon="-71.3128582">
    <tag k="name" v="Spaulding Spring"/>
    <tag k="natural" v="spring"/>
    </node>

    or

    <node id="6993434722" visible="true" version="1" changeset="77339781" timestamp="2019-11-20T18:07:43Z" user="HikesNH" uid="6921131" lat="44.3097323" lon="-71.3125039">
    <tag k="name" v="Gulfside Spring"/>
    <tag k="natural" v="spring"/>
    </node>

    Apologies for a thread drift.
    Click image for larger version. 

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Size:	29.5 KB 
ID:	6933
    Excellent. Thanks for that info. I generally use CalTop and Gaia for mapping purposes and they show the "typical" sources. I like to flag small, reliable brooks and similar spots with GPS coordinates that don't show up on most maps and are not official springs.

  15. #150
    Senior Member maineguy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by iAmKrzys View Post
    Some water sources are marked on OpenStreetMap - they show up as little blue circles in current map visualization. For example here: https://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=1...0997/-71.31280 you should be able to find Spaulding Spring and Gulfside Spring. The problem is that they are not easy to find in a systematic way. One thing you can try is to select area of them map and use "Export" button - it will dump raw data behind the rendered map in XML format which you can load into a text editor and search for a word "spring". If you find it, you will get coordinates as part of the record like this:

    <node id="6993406550" visible="true" version="1" changeset="77339781" timestamp="2019-11-20T18:07:43Z" user="HikesNH" uid="6921131" lat="44.3116913" lon="-71.3128582">
    <tag k="name" v="Spaulding Spring"/>
    <tag k="natural" v="spring"/>
    </node>

    or

    <node id="6993434722" visible="true" version="1" changeset="77339781" timestamp="2019-11-20T18:07:43Z" user="HikesNH" uid="6921131" lat="44.3097323" lon="-71.3125039">
    <tag k="name" v="Gulfside Spring"/>
    <tag k="natural" v="spring"/>
    </node>

    Apologies for a thread drift.
    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	2022-11-30 (2).jpg 
Views:	36 
Size:	29.5 KB 
ID:	6933
    Were you able to locate the spring that used to supply the Nauman Shelters (off the Webster Cliff Trail)?

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