Sunday River may get company - Lithium Mine

This was in the press last year but it seemed to have run into a dead end. https://www.bangordailynews.com/2023/01/09/news/central-maine/newry-lithium-legal-fight/ The state of Maine has had several high-profile past issues with conventional sulfide deposit based mines being abandoned and turning into long running environmental issues.https://www.newscentermaine.com/art...eanup/97-49f04bbe-8246-4979-95c3-5a9d3ecb63bf The deposits found to date are on Plumbago Mountain, located just to the west of Rumford Whitecap and east of Puzzle Mountain that has a portion of the Grafton Loop Trail. Past and current discoveries of potential sulfide based deposits at Bald Mountain, Pickett Mountain, and recently Pennington Mtn in Aroostook County https://www.usgs.gov/news/national-...nificant-critical-minerals-potential-northern . means that there is lot of pressure by special interests to allow these mines to get built. The state has taken great care in passing legislation to prevent new mines, but this type of mining was not anticipated as its not sulfide based. No sulfides, far less long term environmental impact. The intent expressed in the past by this project was to remove the ore locally and then ship it to facility elsewhere for post processing. My guess would be onto the SLR railroad in Bethel and then up to Quebec where there are existing facilities.

I think the state officials recognize that this is a different sort of mine but have to be very careful as there were attempts during prior administrations to weaken the rules to allow mines and a current attempt by the Pickett Mountain developer to open up sulfide deposit based mining. Probably the best way to get around this would be a successful court case as the state law would remain in place yet there could still be a substantial economic benefits to an area of Maine that lost its primary industry of wood specialty products a couple of decades ago. Plumbago Mountain is relatively out of sight, out of mind for most except along RT 5 but its likely given the geology of the region that there could be more deposits in the area. There has been extensive recent land protection in the area, so it is probably not going to be a "gold rush".

Very good info and thank you for the heads up. This IMO is a fine example of the environmental challenges and balancing we have as a Society going forward when it comes to energy production. Lithium being a major building block in the production of rechargeable batteries, this sounds as if it could be prosperous endeavor for the State of Maine. Considering the bulk of Lithium is mined in over sea countries like the leading producer Australia. An on continent mine makes some sense going forward. Even though it may have to be shipped to Quebec for processing it does bring it closer to home. Again, one of the biggest challenges is balancing that with other environmental concerns as in this case being in the woods of Maine. Also, much like the CMP project will the State of Maine directly benefit from this project if it were to go? IMO this project is potentially an example of the interdependent avenue that all the New England States need to open up their minds to. If we are to go greener and move towards things like electric cars, we are going to need lithium among lots of other elements being torn from the ground.

I'm confused, doesn't lithium have to be mined in order to make batteries for our EVs? Or do we expect other countries to do the dirty work? (not to mention the strategic problem of importing our EV raw materials and technology) Ultimately, we can't have it both ways.

edit: skiguy beat me to it.

NHClimber said:

I'm confused, doesn't lithium have to be mined in order to make batteries for our EVs? Or do we expect other countries to do the dirty work? (not to mention the strategic problem of importing our EV raw materials and technology) Ultimately, we can't have it both ways.

edit: skiguy beat me to it.

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When it comes to cobalt it is really dirty. My understanding is The east Congo has the biggest deposits of Cobalt than anywhere else in the world. So big that it is bigger than all the rest of the cobalt found on the face of the earth. Let's all remember that the next time we are all wondering around in the mountains with our cell phones, beacons and radios.
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2022-02-24/cobalt-mining-in-the-congo-green-energy/100802588

skiguy said:

When it comes to cobalt it is really dirty. My understanding is The east Congo has the biggest deposits of Cobalt than anywhere else in the world. So big that it is bigger than all the rest of the cobalt found on the face of the earth. Let's all remember that the next time we are all wondering around in the mountains with our cell phones, beacons and radios.
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2022-02-24/cobalt-mining-in-the-congo-green-energy/100802588

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Exactly. I am somewhat apolitical but I dislike hypocrisy and I see a lot of it with folks who advocate for green energy, but green energy trades one set of problems for another and we should just be honest about it. And we are very much a NIMBY culture -- it's ok if other countries do the dirty work so we can feel better about ourselves. Eventually, we are going to have to come to grips with the fact that we'll have to do the best we can to create the balance between environmental considerations and the reality of what it takes to produce scalable energy to replace fossil fuels, as you reference in your post. I think we are going to find that nuclear is the only scalable source. Heck, I have set up some solar "to do the right thing" and to enable me to use less from the grid, and I can tell you it is massively uneconomical and temperamental.

skiguy said:

When it comes to cobalt it is really dirty. My understanding is The east Congo has the biggest deposits of Cobalt than anywhere else in the world. So big that it is bigger than all the rest of the cobalt found on the face of the earth. Let's all remember that the next time we are all wondering around in the mountains with our cell phones, beacons and radios.
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2022-02-24/cobalt-mining-in-the-congo-green-energy/100802588

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The cobalt mines in the Congo are an absolute humanitarian disaster. There was a short documentary chronicling this on YouTube or something similar a month or two ago (no doubt there are others) and the treatment by humans of other humans purely for $$$ is appalling. The things we are willing to look the other way for to have all our creature comforts is truly disturbing. It is the human being equivalent of the horrifying things we do to animals in the food industry.

Heard an excellent slide talk about lithium-bearing spodumene pegmatites by retired USGS-Alaska geologist Dwight Bradley at Plymouth State a few years ago. Dwight is one of six PhD geologists that I know who grew up in Randolph or lived there during the summer, an amazing number for a small town. He and spouse bought the Jack Boothman property with the red barn in Randolph north of Rte 2.

Although beryl crystals are really cool and lithium-rich, I think that playa lake brines will remain the primary source for lithium into the foreseeable future until sodium-ion batteries are developed. Largest lithium mine in US is in a playa deposit in northern Nevada.

DayTrip said:

The cobalt mines in the Congo are an absolute humanitarian disaster. There was a short documentary chronicling this on YouTube or something similar a month or two ago (no doubt there are others) and the treatment by humans of other humans purely for $$$ is appalling. The things we are willing to look the other way for to have all our creature comforts is truly disturbing. It is the human being equivalent of the horrifying things we do to animals in the food industry.

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It's truly abhorrent. It's a travesty our media outlets refuse to shed light on these matters. True child slave labor in massive numbers is used to mine these elements necessary for electric vehicles. Unfortunately, EV's are not the carbon-neutral platform we have been sold. Sure seems to be panning out into a massive financial transference; not the environment-saving utopia we have been promised.

There are certain facets of government that are necessary to keep us all safe and in this instance oversite for responsible mining of this resource. The sad part is there is unprecedented hypocrisy and disinformation provided us all. Very few politicians have avoided "ownership" to the lobbyist almighty $$. Having been a part of Gov't and many NYS DEC SEQR processes I have little faith in the right thing being done for the people of Maine. Much caution and reasonable oversite is necessary.

Luckily Lithium Nickel Manganese Cobalt Oxide batteries are on the way out for stationary and even for some EVs. Even Tesla is switching to the LiPO Oxide batteries which cut out more of the strategic metals. Many folks in the industry are thinking that Lithium based batteries are also on the way out. Trying to keep up with emerging battery technologies is full time job and no one knows what technology will become the prevalent one. The problem with technological innovation is the law of unintended consequences and the worldwide race to the bottom to get the cheapest product on the market regardless of impact.

Interestingly Plumbago Mountain has a fairly large rock quarry that got built to support the Wind Farm that was built in Roxbury Township just north of Rumford White Cap. It it quite visible from the summit of white cap. Reportedly the type of mining required to remove the Lithium containing crystals is closer to quarrying than mining.

Reportedly there are all sorts of lithium out there its just the economy of mining it. Geothermal brine is reportedly another source.

The reason Randolph has so many PHDs is that since the mid 1800s it was popular place for Ivy league school alumni and teachers to stay the summer at various local guesthouses and then in cabins that they had built or built many of those cabin remained in academic families for several generations until today. They were coming before the rails but the SLR railroad from Portland to Gorham in 1851 meant an easy connection to Boston. Until the Mountain Division was built from Portland in the mid 1870s, Gorham was much easier to get to then any of the towns south of notches. The addition of the B&M (now the presidential range trail) added frequent, and rail stops with Randolph having 4 stations. It was the equivalent of an "artist colony" for academics. Lots of Nobel Laureates spent there summers in town. The Randolph Library has quite a selection of books by "local" authors. A Doctor Conant had a summer place in Randolph at one point the president of Harvard wrote the book of Practical Chemistry which was the standard textbook for college chemistry for a couple of decades in the US. He was on the National Defense Research Committee that was the predecessor to the Manhattan project and reportedly General Groves flew into the Berlin airport to visit with him to discuss the project. He was later the ambassador to Germany post war.

BISCUT said:

It's truly abhorrent. It's a travesty our media outlets refuse to shed light on these matters. True child slave labor in massive numbers is used to mine these elements necessary for electric vehicles. Unfortunately, EV's are not the carbon-neutral platform we have been sold. Sure seems to be panning out into a massive financial transference; not the environment-saving utopia we have been promised.

There are certain facets of government that are necessary to keep us all safe and in this instance oversite for responsible mining of this resource. The sad part is there is unprecedented hypocrisy and disinformation provided us all. Very few politicians have avoided "ownership" to the lobbyist almighty $$. Having been a part of Gov't and many NYS DEC SEQR processes I have little faith in the right thing being done for the people of Maine. Much caution and reasonable oversite is necessary.

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https://youtu.be/CIWvk3gJ_7E

peakbagger said:

Trying to keep up with emerging battery technologies is full time job and no one knows what technology will become the prevalent one.

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Indeed. I watched a really cool video for a carbon dioxide based battery that essentially supported itself by the constant changing of C02 into O2 and back. They had a large working prototype. I don't remember all the particulars but this seemed like a great idea. I believe all it needed was water. No idea if this can be made into a small enough product for cars and such things but it may well be something that could work for a home or small buildings. I believe this was the article I read (which includes a YouTube demo video):
https://electrek.co/2022/06/28/worl...nergy Dome has,deployed anywhere in the world.

EDIT: I think I botched the "how to" part of my post but it's easier to just watch the video than have me attempt to correct my blunder.

DayTrip said:

Indeed. I watched a really cool video for a carbon dioxide based battery that essentially supported itself by the constant changing of C02 into O2 and back. They had a large working prototype. I don't remember all the particulars but this seemed like a great idea. I believe all it needed was water. No idea if this can be made into a small enough product for cars and such things but it may well be something that could work for a home or small buildings. I believe this was the article I read (which includes a YouTube demo video):
https://electrek.co/2022/06/28/worl...nergy Dome has,deployed anywhere in the world.

EDIT: I think I botched the "how to" part of my post but it's easier to just watch the video than have me attempt to correct my blunder.

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Very interesting. Good info. Thanks for posting.
Here is another example of thinking outside the box. https://www.cnn.com/2017/11/15/world/riversimple-hydrogen-cars-wales/index.html

skiguy said:

Very interesting. Good info. Thanks for posting.
Here is another example of thinking outside the box. https://www.cnn.com/2017/11/15/world/riversimple-hydrogen-cars-wales/index.html

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This has been "a thing" for awhile now yet doesn't seem to be going anywhere. Would seem like the ultimate fix. Not sure what the technological hurdle is holding it back.

No need for homebrew, just call up Toyota https://www.toyota.com/mirai/ I used to work for a company in VT that built hydrogen fuel stations. Last thing I knew the closest one was Connecticut.

DayTrip said:

This has been "a thing" for awhile now yet doesn't seem to be going anywhere. Would seem like the ultimate fix. Not sure what the technological hurdle is holding it back.

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I would just guess off the top of my head that it is not a technological hurdle but more of a combination of economic, political and psychosocial hurdles.

peakbagger said:

No need for homebrew, just call up Toyota https://www.toyota.com/mirai/ I used to work for a company in VT that built hydrogen fuel stations. Last thing I knew the closest one was Connecticut.

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Just guessing but as we are seeing here in Northern New England the proliferation of electric charging stations has been very slow to take. Also as you well know having an electric car operation range is limited and has to be well calculated. Could that same lack of refueling stations with hydrogen possibly be holding back the proliferation of hydrogen based cars? This is why IMO a hybrid type vehicle makes a lot more sense. As a society embracing a mentality of using multiple types of fuel sources in conjunction seems a more viable solution not only in vehicles but at home and the workplace. For instance, completely abolishing all fossil fuels is simply unrealistic in the near future or ever. We could be doing a much better job reducing emissions at the tailpipe and combine that with electric and or hydrogen. Back in the 60's the entire Northeast was suffering from Acid Rain. Look at the technology that was employed that resulted in a major reduction of CO2 emissions and toxins. Why can't we expand upon that with what's coming out of your tailpipe and the chimney on your house. Look at the Androscoggin River. That place was a mess not to mention did not smell so great. Senator Muskie from Rumford, Maine grew up near the river and became one of the original authors of the Clean Water Act. Which has been extremely successful. Of course that was back in the day when Politicians were actually effective. Meanwhile we are now being steered by big business and a political base only in it for themselves not to mention a mostly tainted media with their heads up their arse telling us what is good for us. IMO we really need to open our minds to a more interdependent way of thinking when it comes to energy consumption. Just thinking off the top of my head. Excuse me if I'm just blowing smoke out of my own arse.

Days of independent thinking by politicians are way over. Gridlock is best you can hope for. PHEV would seem more prudent than pure EV. Toyota has taken a lot of heat from the mainstream green movement because it is much more practical in terms of how it views a logical transition to vehicles that rely less on pure ICE. Unless you are a commuter to a big city or only drive to the church on weekends, having a pure EV presents challenges. And if you need towing capacity then forget it. And then to make matters even worse, the grid is a disaster. Brown outs where you can't charge are already happening. I really see nuclear as the only way to meet the massive demand for electrical power not generated by fossil fuels, yet politically we're not there yet even though there is great tech in that area and would be light years better if we hadn't shunned nuclear over the last 30 years due to disasters like Chernobyl that were based on ridiculously archaic technology that only the former Soviet Union employed at the time (i.e., graphite reactor).

skiguy said:

Just guessing but as we are seeing here in Northern New England the proliferation of electric charging stations has been very slow to take. Also as you well know having an electric car operation range is limited and has to be well calculated. Could that same lack of refueling stations with hydrogen possibly be holding back the proliferation of hydrogen based cars? This is why IMO a hybrid type vehicle makes a lot more sense. As a society embracing a mentality of using multiple types of fuel sources in conjunction seems a more viable solution not only in vehicles but at home and the workplace. For instance, completely abolishing all fossil fuels is simply unrealistic in the near future or ever. We could be doing a much better job reducing emissions at the tailpipe and combine that with electric and or hydrogen. Back in the 60's the entire Northeast was suffering from Acid Rain. Look at the technology that was employed that resulted in a major reduction of CO2 emissions and toxins. Why can't we expand upon that with what's coming out of your tailpipe and the chimney on your house. Look at the Androscoggin River. That place was a mess not to mention did not smell so great. Senator Muskie from Rumford, Maine grew up near the river and became one of the original authors of the Clean Water Act. Which has been extremely successful. Of course that was back in the day when Politicians were actually effective. Meanwhile we are now being steered by big business and a political base only in it for themselves not to mention a mostly tainted media with their heads up their arse telling us what is good for us. IMO we really need to open our minds to a more interdependent way of thinking when it comes to energy consumption. Just thinking off the top of my head. Excuse me if I'm just blowing smoke out of my own arse.

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What has helped reduce acid rain has been reduction of SO2 and NOx emissions at coal-fired power plants and automobile exhaust, respectively, rather than CO2, which has continued to increase. And as a global society we have done a remarkable job with closing the ozone holes in the stratosphere by reduction of CFC emissions. If we only could do the same for CO2 and CH4 emissions.

NHClimber said:

Days of independent thinking by politicians are way over. Gridlock is best you can hope for. PHEV would seem more prudent than pure EV. Toyota has taken a lot of heat from the mainstream green movement because it is much more practical in terms of how it views a logical transition to vehicles that rely less on pure ICE. Unless you are a commuter to a big city or only drive to the church on weekends, having a pure EV presents challenges. And if you need towing capacity then forget it. And then to make matters even worse, the grid is a disaster. Brown outs where you can't charge are already happening. I really see nuclear as the only way to meet the massive demand for electrical power not generated by fossil fuels, yet politically we're not there yet even though there is great tech in that area and would be light years better if we hadn't shunned nuclear over the last 30 years due to disasters like Chernobyl that were based on ridiculously archaic technology that only the former Soviet Union employed at the time (i.e., graphite reactor).

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As bad as the Chernobyl meltdown was, the earlier partial meltdown of the state-of-art, Babcock & Wilcox, pressurized water reactor (PWR) at Three Mile Island (TMI), Pennsylvania, in March 1979 was the primary reason for increased nuclear plant regulations leading to the decline of nuclear plant construction in the United States. There have been dozens of other close calls with both PWR and boiling water nuclear reactors in the U.S., but TMI was the biggie. New nuclear plants cannot get insurance.

Dr. Dasypodidae said:

As bad as the Chernobyl meltdown was, the earlier partial meltdown of the state-of-art, Babcock & Wilcox, pressurized water reactor (PWR) at Three Mile Island (TMI), Pennsylvania, in March 1979 was the primary reason for increased nuclear plant regulations leading to the decline of nuclear plant construction in the United States. There have been dozens of other close calls with both PWR and boiling water nuclear reactors in the U.S., but TMI was the biggie. New nuclear plants cannot get insurance.

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Agree, but the movie with Jane Fonda didn't help I believe the USN operates the largest number of reactors in the US, with a perfect safety record. Although much smaller than commercial plants, they operate in harsh conditions with highly enriched (weapons grade) uranium. And remember, more people died in the back seat of a certain politician's car than all the nuclear power plants in the US.