Lightning

Can anyone give me any suggestions on what to do if caught out in the woods during a bad thunder storm.

Get low

Get low, remove clothing with metal parts, wait it out. Stay away from the tallest trees.

cp2000 said:

Can anyone give me any suggestions on what to do if caught out in the woods during a bad thunder storm.

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put on a raincoat.
"in the woods"
stay away from open water, don't be in the middle of an open field, don't stand under the tallest tree...
also stay away from standing dead wood (dead trees), when dead wood gets wet it gets heavier and branches can break (also there is usually wind during a thunderstorm) i think i have heard dead trees referred to as "widowmakers".

jjmcgo said:

remove clothing with metal parts,

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don't worry about metal buttons, buckles, etc. - if electricity jumps 6000 feet down from the clouds do you think a few inches of metal is going to matter? you shouldnt use your hiking poles either since they could be a path from the ground to you (if it strikes nearby there will be current along the ground) - but fold them up and carry them on your pack, a 2 foot long piece of metal will not matter when it can jump through thousands of feet of air...

You might find this link helpful:

http://www.nols.edu/resources/research/pdfs/lightningsafetyguideline.pdf

I've gotten conflicting advice (all from reputable sources) on whether your feet should be close together while in "lightning position" (to make it less likely you'll get hit with a ground current) or whether they should be shoulder width apart (so that the current can flow out your other leg - an not out the top of your head - if you do get hit with ground current), but most of what I've read or heard has been consistant about a) watching the weather and getting to safer areas BEFORE the storm is close enough to hurt you b) don't stand near the tallest tree but don't BE the tallest tree either - in other words, get off of ridges and stay out of open areas and clearings and c) if you're hiking with a group, stay in eye or voice contact, but spread out so lightning can't bounce off of one person on to another.

Be thankful that you are in the forest and not above treeline!

I have heard that sitting/crouching on a foam sleep pad is a good thing to do...as others have said, stay away from the tallest trees, water, open fields, etc.

Thanks for the ideas. Ive looked through some of the books I own on survival and what not and the only thing any of them said was to curl up in a ball. I know not to do things like walk across a ridge waving my trek pole in the air but the whole thing about staying clear of rotting logs would have never crossed my mind.

Thanks

Chad

Avoid caves, as we're being all esoteric here,

and don't play golf.

griffin said:

I've gotten conflicting advice (all from reputable sources) on whether your feet should be close together while in "lightning position" (to make it less likely you'll get hit with a ground current) or whether they should be shoulder width apart (so that the current can flow out your other leg

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if your legs are apart you will be in "parallel" with the ground & the "ground current" - that means current will flow up one leg and down the other - the further apart your legs are the more current will go through you - also if you crouch down do not put your hands on the ground, the ground current will go up your legs and out your hands (with your heart someplace in the middle).

sapblatt said:

Be thankful that you are in the forest and not above treeline!
I have heard that sitting/crouching on a foam sleep pad is a good thing to do...as others have said, stay away from the tallest trees, water, open fields, etc.

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many foams absorb water (closed cell foam doesn't), but get back to reality... if lightening jumps thousands of feet through air (which is a very good insulator) what do you think an inch of wet foam would do for you???
speaking about treeline... we were on algonquin once when the clouds moved in quickly (it was a beautiful day with no clouds all day so far) - only 2 strikes of lightning - one on big slide and one on algonquin - as we were hightailing it out of there the strike on algonquin hit, we didn't see it but it was right behind us - it went flash, boom without any delay at all - that strike was very close (since sound travels very slowly compared to light, a few hundred feet will give a delay in the sound) that strike must have been right behind us.

if lightning is going to strike a spot it will no matter what the "old wives tales" say - if you are in the way it will go through you - get out of there...

First, try not to get caught in a bad thunderstorm. Know likely weather conditions before the trip and plan accordingly. Keep a watchful eye on clouds and wind shifts and act accordingly, especially if on an exposed ridge. Know an escape route in advance to get below treeline, preferably on the leeward side of a mountain.

If a storm catches up with you there has been a lot of good advice so far. I'd add a few things I've learned ... but not from experience thankfully.

If in a group, do not cluster together as comforting as that might be. Spread out, it reduces the size of a target for lighting to strike. It also helps assure that someone can perform first aid if necessary.

Do not sit/crouch near a stream or rivlet that might be caused by a storm. A glance at erosion patterns can help pick these out. Lightning has been known to follow this short circuit for some distances before dissipating its energy.

If you're perched near trees, try to get halfway between them or half the height in distance away from the tallest one.

Sitting on a pad is theoretically for the purpose of providing some insulation between you and the ground ... good luck keeping it dry and therefore an insulator. However, it's better than nothing and at least, more comfortable than the ground.

Stay calm knowing that there is nothing further you can do and consider the situation akin to the old axiom that there are no atheists in a foxhole under fire.

Although this site is from Colorado , It is a good resourse for dealing with lightning in genral .Usually in the NE you can get a reasonably reliable forcast 12 - 24 hours in advance when it comes to thunderstorms . as they usually are cuased by a cold front , unstable air due to a uppper level low or hot humid summer days can create pop up storms . They seem to like the Franconia Ridge area for some reasom though the Notheren Presdentials and Mt Washington are also high on the list as is Chocorua .
If you see huge black / purple coulds headed your way get down low fast.
here is the link http://www.crh.noaa.gov/pub/ltg.php

you can look at a site such as Intllicast here is the Berlin radar http://www.intellicast.com/Local/US...arImagery&product=Radar&prodnav=none&pid=none

Here is a surface map the Blue lines are cold fronts http://www.intellicast.com/Local/US...urfaceMaps&product=ForecastToday&prodnav=none
ypou can get a good idea of when a sysytem will arive at your intended hiking destination.
Weather Underground is good also as is the Weather chanels site.

ken said:

if lightening jumps thousands of feet through air (which is a very good insulator) what do you think an inch of wet foam would do for you???

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You also made a similar comment about metal.

The relatively small pieces of insulation/conductor will not have much effect on whether or not a bolt strikes, but they can affect the local path of the current.

A short (ie several inches to several feet) piece of metal will tend to concentrate the current through it rather than around it. If you are close to/touching the metal, it is likely to increase the current through you. Victims frequently have burns near metal that they were touching/wearing. Note also that when you are in a car, the metal will conduct the current around you.

Similarly, an insulator will reduce the amount of current flowing near it. So if you crouch on a piece of closed cell foam and there is a nearby strike, it could reduce the ground currents going through your body. In any case, crouching on the foam pad is unlikely to increase your risk.

And air is a good insulator UNTIL IT BREAKS DOWN, after which it is a rather good conductor.

Doug
Electrical Engineer.

Stan said:

Keep a watchful eye on clouds and wind shifts and act accordingly, especially if on an exposed ridge.

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Cloud reading is an important skill. Basic cloud reading is pretty easy--there is a section on it in Freedom of the Hills. (Must also be info somewhere on the web.)

BTW, there is also clear-air lightning. It has been known to strike out of a blue sky or miles from the nearest cloud. Fortunately rare.

Doug

All good responses. Can't emphasize the distance thing enough especially if you're hiking with younger children. You must keep 50 ft between you and them and stay hunkered down. Tough for a child to maintain composure during a storm but they must. Plan ahead too, To many wait till storm is over head. Practice the 30 rule. Once you see a flash count till you hear the thunder. If thunder sounds before you reach 3o (storm is less than 7 miles away and you are in danger). Likewise once the storm has passed wait at least a half hour (30 minutes) before resuming. From what I have heard you'll know if you're in serious danger, when your skin begins to tingle and the hair on your body begins to stand up. On the lighter side an old golfing friend once told me to trade in one treking pole for a one iron. He said if a storm approaches just stand there, hold the one iron to the sky, Why you ask, every golfer knows no one can hit a one iron, not even god. Haven't tried it yet and I probably don't recommend it. Have a nice day all

avoid caves?


Huh? Is this a joke? I thought caves were a safe option during lightning storms.

hardrain said:

HTML:

Avoid caves, as we're being all esoteric here

Huh? Is this a joke? I thought caves were a safe option during lightning storms.

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If you'll pardon the pun, I believe the matter of safety in lightning storms remains in a state of flux.

Some stuff that many of us spent decades "knowing" seems to have been quite in error, according to what has turned up in the lightning literature during the last few years. That probably means this a good topic to bring up and rehash, as we approach each new lightning season.

G.

hardrain said:

HTML:

Avoid caves, as we're being all esoteric here

Huh? Is this a joke? I thought caves were a safe option during lightning storms.

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Not at all. Caves are often part of a (wet) crack system reaching to the surface. The current can follow the wet crack.

A cave is also a gap in the conductive path. This can cause voltage build-up which has the potential to flashover through anyone sitting in the cave.

Doug

caves

One anology would be to think of the cave as the shape of a spark plug. The electric charge jumping from ceiling to floor or to the the nearest best conductor in the area...ourselves.
There is a oft told story here in one of the Seacoast State parks (Ordion PT)
where 3 people took refuge in an old army bunker during a passing storm. One died ,one got injured, and the 3rd person walked away unharmed.
I thinK Mountaineering Freedom of the Hills has a section on where best to try and position yourself to improve your chances of not becoming a conductor...though on a bad day it can find you.
There is much to consider with the current traveling through the ground and along tree roots that often makes it extremely difficult to judge..but we can try as best we can to put the odds in our favor.

good thread/other lightning risks

Good points, mostly correct.

E.G., sitting on a closed-cell foam pad WILL protect against ground current, but NOT against arcs or direct hits.

Feet-together crouch IS valid, but you can still catch ground current if leaning against a cliff or overhang, or in a shallow cave.

Also, LOSE any metal neck chains/Disco Medallions/ "BLING", as they can burn you or fibrillate your heart with "induced current" in a close strike (and are stupid, in any case["Yo, FOOL !!" (Mr T)]).

ONE OTHER POINT, NOT MENTIONED: Back around 1988, my buds and I weathered out a T-storm system passing through the Dacks, only to read later that a teen camper near Mahoosuc Notch (NE of Old Speck, in ME ?) got zapped the same night because he was sleeping in a tent pitched ON TREE ROOTS. He survived, but it was a scary overnight rescue, and I think he missed his Senior Prom/graduation (silver lining ?).

moonrock said:

Feet-together crouch IS valid, but you can still catch ground current if leaning against a cliff or overhang, or in a shallow cave.

camper near Mahoosuc Notch (NE of Old Speck, in ME ?) got zapped the same night because he was sleeping in a tent pitched ON TREE ROOTS.

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Re Feet:
Balancing on one foot is even better (if you can stay up without the aid of any additional support). Foot-to-foot current is safer than current though the upper chest (eg hand-to-hand or hand-to-foot)--stays away from the heart.

Re tree roots:
Essentially a form of ground current.

Doug