Watching Avalanches in the Washington ravines?

Hi!
I had an idea the other day and I'm not sure if anyone ever tried it...some people run after hurricanes, I'd go after avalanches. Here's what I'd do:

I'd check the avy report / forecast before leaving Montreal. If they are high or extreme, I'd leave for Gorham, stay there for the night and then head for huntington or tuckerman in the morning (I know the snowpack will have changed during the night...). Obviously, I wouldn't go anywhere near the slopes. I've only been to huntington once, but there's a point where you come out of the trees: I'd either stay there or maybe move a bit closer to the big rock (it might be fully submerged in snow though, I'll have to see). I'd wait and try to perhaps take a couple of pictures of avalanches.

Has anyone ever tried this? If the danger levels are very high, do you think the slopes might avalanches a couple of times during the day? Obviously, it might get really cold...standing there just waiting, so I'd have to plan for that.

Anything else?

Cheers!

Fish

sounds to me about as crazy as the guys who chase tornados.....the footage might be great...but best suited for doing from a heli or other option..imo..

M

I remember a few years back the dow cache was carried pretty damn far down the ravine - but i think for the most part what your saying is pretty safe if I hear you correctly. I can't imagine standing around waiting for though - you will get damn cold in the dead of winter.
in tucks - hermit lake is safe

The rescue cache in Huntington has been taken out by an avalanche (a few years ago)... Much, if not all of the floors of the ravines is at risk. Safer to watch from a nearby ridge (eg Boot Spur, Lions Head). And yes, Lions Head has also avalanched. (IIRC, in 69-70, one such avalanche crossed the trail to Hermit Lake.)

Doug

Sounds kind of stupid. I was at the base of Gulf of Slides a few years back, and you could easily see where trees were snapped off all around, even down hill for 50 yards or so. I don't think you can be sure you are far enough down hill to be safe. If you are in an open area, chances are the area is open because a previous avalanche has cleared the trees. Plus, standing there all day waiting for an avalanche that may or may not happen?

If you want a shot that bad, I'd go to Wildcat with a huge zoom lense.....

To do your proposal, I recommend studying avalanches in greater detail. Learn when they are most likely to rip -- though they are inherently unpredictable with precision, we are aware of the factors that lead to initiation. I'm not going to list all the factors, but there are plenty of resources out there for you to study. My favorite book on the subject is Staying Alive in Avalanche Terrain by Bruce Tremper. I strongly recommend studying this book as a bare minimum.

Those ravines are not that large in the big-picture sense, at least not compared to the maximal potential slide size. In almost every avalanche zone that I can think of on the Presidential Range, I am aware of a recent avalanche that has essentially swept the bowl. As others point out, there may be no safe zone with a line-of-sight to the slide path.

Another issue is visibility. Naturally-triggered winter avalanches in our area most often happen during/following heavy windloading, which usually requires active snowfall as input. Even if you were in position to have theoretical line-of-sight, actual visibility in the bowls can be minimal -- meaning both that you are unlikely to get good pictures and that you may be exposed to hazards you cannot see (and thus may fail to evaluate).

Finally, remember that you would be playing a dangerous psychological game. Increasingly students of avalanches are understanding that one of the most critical factors in a person's avalanche risk is their mindset. If you are going to the mountains to see an avalanche, you are more likely to see one -- and to be entrained in one. Many people who set certain goals in advance -- e.g. summit peak X, ski face Y -- ultimately make riskier choices than those whose goal is to explore reasonably safe aspects of the mountains and return to do it again. For more reading on this, I recommend Tremper's book, plus a google search on "heuristic trap" and avalanche.

Please don't take this as preachy. You may already be thinking of all of these factors, or I might just be a whackjob. I close with an example of an avalanche forecast from 2/11/05 that, if you had read, might have put you on Wildcat that day.

USFS Snow Scientists said:

Avalanche Advisory for Tuckerman and Huntington Ravines
Posted: 9:20 a.m., Friday, February 11, 2005
Tuckerman and Huntington Ravines have EXTREME AVALANCHE DANGER. Widespread natural or human triggered avalanches are CERTAIN!! Extremely unstable slabs are certain on most aspects and slope angles. Large destructive avalanches are possible. TRAVEL IN AVALANCHE TERRAIN SHOULD BE AVOIDED. THIS INCLUDES STAYING WELL AWAY FROM AVALANCHE PATH RUN-OUTS. TRAVEL BEYOND HERMIT LAKE AND THE HARVARD CABIN SHOULD BE AVOIDED.
Today is an absolute no brainer. Travel in avalanche terrain should be avoided! If you are considering this as an option make sure you have all your personal affairs in order and your executor has the proper instructions. We have picked up 60cm (24in) of snow and it's still snowing. Winds shifted around to the NW early this morning and are expected to gust to 145mph (90mph). We will have an unbelievable amount of loading at an unprecedented scale for this season. We are certain that widespread avalanche activity will occur. Just to say it one more time, travel in avalanche terrain and the associated run-out paths should be avoided. Expect near zero visibility above treeline. It is definitely a hot tub day. Anticipate an elevated avalanche danger rating through the weekend.

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DougPaul said:

The rescue cache in Huntington has been taken out by an avalanche (a few years ago)... Much, if not all of the floors of the ravines is at risk. Safer to watch from a nearby ridge (eg Boot Spur, Lions Head). And yes, Lions Head has also avalanched. (IIRC, in 69-70, one such avalanche crossed the trail to Hermit Lake.)

Doug

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I instinctively thought that being lower meant being safer, but you're right about a ridge. Should of thought of that! I didn't realize the avalanches ran out until the cache...we had to go retrieve the stretcher that's there and it seems pretty far away.

Unfortunately, I'm not equiped with a zoom lens, so I couldn't take pictures from Wildcat.

Thanks for the advise!

Fish

Only reason why I was somewhat flip was the area I was standing in at Great Gulf was the base of an avalanche about an hour after we left. One person was killed, and if had continued hanging out there it's entirely possible we would have been caught up as well.

They are neat to see, but they must be respected.

Avalanches are fascinating to watch, from a safe place of course. I had wondered if any in Tuckerman's or Huntingtons had ever been caught on video. It would be cool to place video cameras facing both ravines, altho it's not realistic due to the lenses being frozen, not to mention the expense. (Similar to the webcams on Wildcat, but closer and live feed. )

Here's a shot of the Huntington cache knocked over after the winter of 2000-2001. If you don't know the lay of the land and the nature of the snowloads, you can't be safe.

-dave-

el-bagr, thanks for the advice.

I am aware of most of the aspects of avalanches (theoretical, from Freedom of the Hills), but avy's are pretty much non-existant in Quebec (except in Mt Chic-Chocs and Mt Groulx, both of which are very far away), so I have no hands-on experience. The reason I posted was that I was concerned about all the things I am aware of, but I am even more concerned with the stuff I hadn't thought about (eg: run about reaching the dow cache is one of them!).

Thanks all for the warnings

Fish

I've considered the very same thing myself. Actually I fully intend to go hiking some late winter at Mt Washington when the avalanche warning is extreme. Chasing a tornado or being in the eye of a hurricane or seeing a Tsunami all can be done. Granted there is a risk factor but you don't watch a Tsunami from the beach, and you don't put yourself in the path of Mother Nature, you don't pull on supermans cape, you don't spit into the wind....the best views come from seeing the big picture from on high. Boot spur is a great idea....so is Lion's head.

I've brought a zoom lens to Wildcat, Tuck's is way too far to get any good detail. But a super duper power zoom may offer more detail.

The one drawback is the waiting....but, I bet you could say your chances are greatly increased in the spring, after a big snow dump, the next day when the sun comes up.

Ive been in an avalanche and it was not fun. I was soloing a snow gully and the whole gully let go, I was carried about 100ft before being spit out, if I never see another avalanche it will be fine with me. Becarefull what you wish for, you just might get it.

And yes, Lions Head has also avalanched. (IIRC, in 69-70, one such avalanche crossed the trail to Hermit Lake.)

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I believe that was 68'-69', the snowiest winter on record for mt. washington.
Never underestimate the power of tons and tons of churning, moving snow.
Sometimes safe places are not safe.

as always,
Vario

If you want to record a Avalanch , one thing is to learn when condtions ar best for them to occure . then set out ot a safe location to record them Most Avalnchese in the NE are Small and do not have the run out of a one in the Rockies this is due to the diffencxe in a maratine and continetal snowpack Going to Hermit lakes and waiting for one to happne is very safe . I would not wory at all as long as you do not venture in ot the ravine it self , Morinings are a good time to see them . Try right after a decent snowfall of 6 ot more inches hike up in the snowfall camp out at Hermit Lake and get up early bring a tripod and have fun .Ask the caretaker which aspect is most likely to slied and wait .
I have seen many out west I would not want ot be in one but the danger in the east is minimal unless you look for troube as in going on ot a sloope that slied in prime condtions .
There are many photos and vidieos of slide in Tucks .
I would enjoy seeing your photos .
I would join you if I have the time

As of Tuesday, Oct. 18, Tuckerman.org is advising hikers and climbers in that area to brush up on avalanche skills and posting a warning about falling ice. Their bottom line: "Remember, if a snowfield is big enough to recreate on it's big enough to avalanche."

RGF1 said:

There are many photos and vidieos of slide in Tucks .
I would enjoy seeing your photos .
I would join you if I have the time

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I don't think I've seen the pics of avalanches in Tucks. You wouldn't happen to have kept those you stumpled about, wouldn't you?

I'll try to post in the trips when I decide to go. It might be very last minute though, since I'm from Montreal and have a fair deal of distance to travel. It might be hard to coordinate.

Fish

hikingfish said:

I don't think I've seen the pics of avalanches in Tucks. You wouldn't happen to have kept those you stumpled about, wouldn't you?

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There are a number of pics of avalanche crowns and debris at http://www.tuckerman.org.

Most avalanches fall during or shortly after the storm which dumps the avalanche snow, so visibility is often rather poor during the event.

Doug

Thankfully the big slide on Tucks two years ago(??) happened at night. I had a serious mishap with falling ice 4 years ago at Tucks, and danced with the Grim Reaper. Some last minute wits and a little bit of luck saved my life.

One of the web sites I check frequently in the winter is www.csac.org. I've contributed funds in the past, as it's a worthy cause and their income is rather bleak. They have avy conditions from all areas available at their site, along with avalanche reports, deaths and near misses recorded. I usually keep tabs on Tucks, the Gaspe, and wherever my winter ski trip is going be located (Europe or BC). Following the conditions all winter gives you good insight as to what the base layers of snow are comprised of. It's always nice to have an idea of what the conditions could be like before you get there. This is no sub for digging a pit and proper avalanche training though!

If you're going to play around in the backcountry take an avy course, buy a beacon, probe and shovel and learn how to use them. I've used my all my any gear in a real situation before, and despite practicing over and over, I was so scared I had to talk myself through the steps I had memorized to handle this situation.

Nadine

Nadine said:

Following the conditions all winter gives you good insight as to what the base layers of snow are comprised of. It's always nice to have an idea of what the conditions could be like before you get there. This is no sub for digging a pit and proper avalanche training though!

If you're going to play around in the backcountry take an avy course, buy a beacon, probe and shovel and learn how to use them. I've used my all my any gear in a real situation before, and despite practicing over and over, I was so scared I had to talk myself through the steps I had memorized to handle this situation.

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Very good points. Still, it is worth remembering that digging a pit is no substitute for good routefinding skills and risk management/avoidance.

As far as the Holy Trinity (beacon, probe and shovel), may you never have to use them outside of practice. As Nadine experienced, using them to recover your friend's body, alive or otherwise, is very different from playing find-the-Snickers in the parking lot (which is nevertheless a worthwhile game). Something simple, like one searcher failing to turn off her transmitter, can disrupt the recovery effort. In the panic and focus that naturally follows a disaster, searchers often place themselves in danger (through exposure to hangfire or pther proximal hazards) without being aware.

Again, I must emphasize that good routefinding skills and risk management are more certain to lead to optimal outcomes than body recovery skills. This trend is increasingly recognized by teachers of snow science, where the traditional focus on pit digging techniques is being supplanted by routefinding and skier objective management foremost, with beacon search techniques as secondary -- the idea being that it is more valuable to teach drivers how to avoid collisions than how to operate the "jaws of life".


edit to add a pic of the slide Nadine references: