Comparison of indoor vs outdoor temperatures of huts in the winter

I’ve spent a number of mid- winter nights at both the Zealand and Carter huts, and agree with most of the above posts- the one thing I’d add is before I bought my -20 degree down bag, I rented from EMS or IME (North Conway). At that time, (early 90’s) they only rented synthetic bags, which took up a LARGE volume of space in my winter bag- It was a real challenge getting everything in, including the necessary liquid refreshments (very useful in keeping warm!) So if you do rent synthetic, you might want to take your bag along to be sure you have enough volume-

BTW: On our first trip we brought freeze dried food and shared the hut with a group from Canada who brought gourmet food and a case of wine- Needless to stay on our subsequent trips we brought steak, lasagna and all sorts of other goodies!

KRobi said:

At Carter you leave that "relative" warmth and have to go outside and up a usually icy hill to get to the bunk house.....
Again, at Carter you must put on some kind of "gear" to get to the facilities.

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Ditto those comments, and can confirm that the bunkhouses get almost as cold as the outside, but with less wind. I stayed there many moons ago the day after Thanksgiving and the overnight temps were in the single digits (3 deg F maybe?). I slept in some of my clothes inside a 20 degree bag and was quite comfortable but I'm a "warm sleeper" for the most part. Comfortable until I needed to use the facilities at midnight. A bigger shock to the system was the cold seat.

Slight Thread Drift/Unsolicited Advice Warning

I don't know how most people got started winter camping, but I'd be willing to bet it wasn't near tree-line at 20 below. For me it was more of a process, with gradual exposure to more challenging conditions accomplished by cherry-picking weather and transitioning into winter by backpacking later into the fall.
Still, there were nights I was not properly prepared for the cold, snow or freezing rain. The reason I don't care for huts and lean-tos is that I'd rather be self-sufficient; prepared to set-up anywhere in the event I don't reach my goal, which isn't hard to do on short winter days. Simple things like replenishing water can be a challenge in winter.

I'd recommend renting, borrowing or buying the proper gear, including tents, and setting up near a hut, bail-out point or even a trailhead, in case there's an issue, for your first few outings.

I've stayed at Lonesome Lake hut and Zealand hut in the winter. Lonesome Lake trip was January 2008, it was in the single digits outside, and probably in the high teens in the bunk room. The bunk rooms at Lonesome Lake are in a separate building, unlike Zealand where the bunks and main room are the same building. Not that it makes much difference - I didn't find Zealand to be any warmer.

In any case, I was surprised at how warm I was in my LL Bean 0-degree bag on the Lonesome Lake trip - first time I had used that bag. I started out with 2 layers on top, and over the course of the night it was too hot, I ended up taking both layers off and just sleeping with no shirt on.

On the Zealand hut trip just this past December, temps were also in single digits outside, and I slept the night comfortably with just one layer on top, again with the 0-degree bag.

The trouble with these kind of threads though, is that everyone is different and some people will be fine with a 0-degree bag, some will need a -20. But generally, I'd think that if you got cold in a 0-degree bag, you could just throw on enough extra layers to get warm in a hut. I think a down jacket inside a sleeping bag will be too much, maybe just two or three thinner layers would work.

Edit: as far as hutmasters being stingy with the wood for a fire, that wasn't my experience on either of these winter trips.

roadtripper said:

Another question I don't know the answer to - does sleeping in a down jacket within a down sleeping bag offer some serious benefit. Is the down too compressed at that point? Are there any other issues with this, such as comfort, moisture management, etc.?

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I've slept with a down vest on and I was very comfortable. Even if it was crushed some it still filled in spaces with insulastion I would not have had filled. After I got up I wore it under a wind break and any moisture in it worked out with body temperature. I didn't pack it away moist from sleeping.

Oh ya I got it cheap from Walmart.

roadtripper said:

Another question I don't know the answer to - does sleeping in a down jacket within a down sleeping bag offer some serious benefit. Is the down too compressed at that point? Are there any other issues with this, such as comfort, moisture management, etc.?

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I've slept in a down bag in a down expedition weight jacket with hood once, because it was a retangular down bag that was horribly inadequate for the temps that night. It worked, I slept, but it's far from a good solution, sort of like stuffing one bag into another. If it was any warmer I would have sweated in the jacket, which would have screwed up everything. The warmest thing I sleep in now is a fleece hoodie and fleece pants, but normally it's just a polyester hood/balaclava and long capilenes. I do like to wear my down booties in the bag, though. Keeps feet warm and is convenient if I need to get up.

Carter's bunkhouses were, I believe, recently renovated in the same style as Lonesome Lake's. This means that they are much better protected from wind. What this also means is that the little rooms in both locations will get soaking wet inside for lack of air circulation. Crack a window if you stay in a bunkroom at Carter or Lakes. It's no fun to have condensation dripping on you from the ceiling in the middle of the night.

(old-timers will recall when guests were specifically asked to do this because otherwise the forming frost would set off the fire alarms)

This is not an issue with Zealand due to the bunkrooms being much, much larger, with more air leaks.

I've slept at Carter and it was -12°F outside, -11.9°F inside. It's no problem with a good bag, and let's not forget the right clothes to sleep in. You will want long sleeves and long underwear. I recommend a turtleneck if you can stand the feeling. And bring a hat. You don't need much, but you will want something, even just a poly or silk liner. Some good sleeping bags will wrap over your head like a hood, but I still find it more comfortable to have something between the bag and my head.

The plastic mattresses at the huts are wicked cold, and will conduct that cold right into your sleeping bag, since of course under you the bag is compressed and not insulating as well. I always bring a closed-cell foam pad (z-rest or ridgerest) to put between the bag and mattress as insulation.

Unless it's an attached bathroom like Zealand or Cardigan, guys, bring a pee bottle and leave your modesty at home. Ladies, uh, sorry.

Also, remember that the big will be incredibly cold when you get into it. Throwing in a tightly-closed Nalgene with hot water will help out with this, especially in heating up the toe area. However ... this might make you too warm when you first get in the bag, resulting in leaving it a little unzipped, leaving your arms out, etc. Then later, when the bottle has gone cold, you'll wake up freezing and have to close yourself into the bag. I think it's better to skip the hot water bottle and just get in the bag and seal myself in.

Speaking of sealing and moisture, keep in mind that bag is designed to allow the vapor from your body out, but don't put your head inside the bag. That's too much, and it will end up freezing inside the bag, both making it heavier and also reducing its insulating abilities.

Finally, don't forget to keep everything that shouldn't freeze, as well as your electronics, in the bag with you. I tend to put my camera, headlamp, and spare batteries into one of my water bottle cozies and shove that down into the bag. That way, it's a soft, padded container and neither hurts the equipment nor my feet.

roadtripper said:

Another question I don't know the answer to - does sleeping in a down jacket within a down sleeping bag offer some serious benefit. Is the down too compressed at that point? Are there any other issues with this, such as comfort, moisture management, etc.?

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Yet another answer:

Yes it is likely to keep you somewhat warmer by increasing the insulation over your upper body. It also can serve another function--a draft block. Winter sleeping bags have a draft collar (which seals the bag at your shoulder level) to prevent your movement (due to breathing or any other movement) from pumping warm air out and cold air into your bag. Wearing the down jacket or just draping it over your upper chest and shoulders can also block the airflow.

When I used a down bag inside a polyester bag, the down would loft inward and fill up the voids and block the airflow very effectively.

Doug

MichaelJ said:

I've slept at Carter and it was -12°F outside, -11.9°F inside. It's no problem with a good bag, and let's not forget the right clothes to sleep in. You will want long sleeves and long underwear. I recommend a turtleneck if you can stand the feeling. And bring a hat. You don't need much, but you will want something, even just a poly or silk liner. Some good sleeping bags will wrap over your head like a hood, but I still find it more comfortable to have something between the bag and my head.

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The clothing and hat (better yet a balaclava) also help to keep skin and hair oils out of the bag. (The less you have to wash the bag, the better it is for the bag.)

Finally, don't forget to keep everything that shouldn't freeze, as well as your electronics, in the bag with you. I tend to put my camera, headlamp, and spare batteries into one of my water bottle cozies and shove that down into the bag. That way, it's a soft, padded container and neither hurts the equipment nor my feet.

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If do this, I suggest that you put anything that is moisture or frost sensitive (ie your camera) in a ziploc bag first to prevent condensation.

The headlamp and batteries should be fine out in the cold. (I keep a headlamp close by or in the bag for light in case I get up, but all my spares stay in my pack.) Batteries only need to be warm (enough) when you use them, cold storage is fine. (In fact batteries generally have a longer shelf life if stored cold.)

FWIW, unless it is really cold, I just leave my camera out in my pack.

Doug

mtnpa said:

We stayed in a cabin in Savoy without winter bags.
You'll be plenty warm if you bring enough wood.

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Due to the Asian Longhorn Beetle situation,you can't bring wood in anymore-you can buy it from the rangers house across the street. There is a guy just down the road that sells wood-check with the ranger to see if that's still ok.

Savoy cabins can be toasty once you get the stove dialed in!

Chip said:

Slight Thread Drift/Unsolicited Advice Warning

I don't know how most people got started winter camping, but I'd be willing to bet it wasn't near tree-line at 20 below. For me it was more of a process, with gradual exposure to more challenging conditions accomplished by cherry-picking weather and transitioning into winter by backpacking later into the fall.
Still, there were nights I was not properly prepared for the cold, snow or freezing rain. The reason I don't care for huts and lean-tos is that I'd rather be self-sufficient; prepared to set-up anywhere in the event I don't reach my goal, which isn't hard to do on short winter days. Simple things like replenishing water can be a challenge in winter.

I'd recommend renting, borrowing or buying the proper gear, including tents, and setting up near a hut, bail-out point or even a trailhead, in case there's an issue, for your first few outings.

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Chip, this is a fantastic post, from start to finish. Excellent.

Billy said:

Chip, this is a fantastic post, from start to finish. Excellent.

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Thanks Billy ! Check's in the mail !

Good thread; thanks for the useful info. I'm very experienced in winter hiking and winter camping in New York, but I'll be doing my first hut trip next week and had been wondering what sleeping bag to bring.

The AMC website is lacking info in some important areas... Where do we get drinking water while up there at LL? Is it potable? Directly out of the lake? Will I need to boil or otherwise treat the water before drinking?

Lonesome Lake Hut's well is deep enough to run all winter. I've drunk directly from it without additional treatment, I don't know if that's recommended or not. The caretaker will maintain one or more enormous pots of hot, boiled (thus potable) water on the stove - these pots have spigots for your use. Of course you can always fill your own pot or kettle with water and boil it up for your own use.

At Carter Notch, the caretaker will ask guests to assist in taking a bunch of jugs out to the lake, keeping the chopped hole open, and collecting water. Then it goes onto the stove and once it boils, is available.

OK, so it will be cold in the bunkrooms, and maybe warm in the main hut. How about food storage? Where do I store my food? Is there a mouse-proof cabinet like the ADK has in their cabins, or do I need to bring a canister or Ursack to keep the mice out of my food? Thanks for all the good info. We're leaving early Friday morning.

You can put food in the fridges.

There's fridges?!

ALGonquin Bob said:

There's fridges?!

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Yup. Not turned on in the winter but they keep things from freezing and keep the critters out.

There are indeed Sun Frost brand fridges. In caretaker season one is usually set aside for the caretaker and the other for guests. More useful, however, are the big white rolling plastic tubs that are underneath one of the countertops. Again, they're usually split between guest and caretaker use. They are critter-free (put the lid back on) and have a lot of capacity.

One thing I learned about staying at the huts - absolutely change your base layer when you arrive, especially if you've been sweating on the way. At Carter Notch a few years ago, it was the coldest weekend of the year and I managed to get too cold in the hut, and couldn't warm up right away... which was pretty scary for me.

I am a warm sleeper (like a furnace), but I have slept with hot nalgenes and it's really nice. I think the toughest part is getting out of the bag the next day!