GPS units

[DougPaul]

I want to mention that if you're thinking of using the GPS for paddling on the ocean Charts and Maps are two different things.

The older (pre-Topo 2008) topos had better representations of the close-to-land ocean waters than the newer US Topo products . Of course, such objects as buoys may have been moved since the maps were made...

Garmin topo works fine straight from the box...no hidden fees.
Garmin City Navigator needs to be unlocked...we returned it as soon as we saw the UNLOCK word.

USGS topos are public domain, thus no locking. The routeable road maps contain copyrighted data and thus the mapmaker can demand per-user fees from Garmin (and the other consumer GPS suppliers) which is passed along to the customer as locking fees. (One lock currently comes with the original purchase.)

There used to be a version of City Navigator which was not locked, but it also does not allow automatic routing on the GPS. (It can auto-route in Mapsource.) Perhaps it is still available. I avoided the whole issue by buying the last set of routeable road maps (Metroguide, v4.02?) before locking was applied due to a change in the map supplier. Of course, the map is old, but all maps have errors...

Doug

 

[DougPaul]

I seem to recall that the 60CSx had a limitation of a 2GB microSD card or less due to a limitation in the OS' ability to manage more memory? Does anyone know whether that limitation has been changed with a newer OS?

The old limits for the 60CSx were 2025 map segments and a 2GB card. One of the more recent firmware updates (v3.90, released 31 Mar 2009) increases the maximum card size, reportedly to 8GB. (No change in the max number of segments.)

The topo maps come with a large number of small segments--thus the limitation for me is 2025 segments. With my current mix of maps (Topo 2008 for the eastern 1/3 of the US (100K scale), 24K topos National Parks East, Metroguide for the eastern 1/3 of the US), ~2020 segments comes to 1.3GB.

Doug

 

[Kevin Rooney]

Thanks for clarifying that, Doug.

 

[Remix]

I want to mention that if you're thinking of using the GPS for paddling on the ocean Charts and Maps are two different things.

Yes:

1) Garmin is moving the ocean stuff to SD Cards and is stopping Blue Chart DVD production- I assume this is to cut down on piracy and re-use of the product in multiple units.

2) The Blue Charts software--and the other marine mapping products--cannot print useable nav charts. (Compass rose, lines of orientation, navaid flashing and noise properties, datum, max ebb/flood tidal velocities at points and too many other things are omitted)

 

[Remix]

Regarding Garmin Locking Codes-

There are two types of unlocking codes.

1) The first type is an unlocking code that allows the software to be installed on a PC. This appears to a random number.

2) The second type of unlocking code is one that is a combination of the mapping product unlock code and the serial number of the unit that is going to be used with the mapping product.

Example.
I bought a Garmin GPS10 bluetooth unit. It came with City Navigator.

1) I used the unlock code to install city Navigator with Map Source to my PC.

2) Then I needed to get an unlock code to make City Navigator work with my GPS10, (This would prevent other people's GPS 10 working with my PC. )Mapsource got this code for me automatically over the internet.

3) Much to my surprise, Garmin gave me a free additional unlock code so I could download City Navigator maps into my Garmin Colorado. (I made an email inquiry) But, if I also wanted to use City Navigator a third Garmin device, I would have to pay for another unlock code.

 

[DougPaul]

1) Garmin is moving the ocean stuff to SD Cards and is stopping Blue Chart DVD production- I assume this is to cut down on piracy and re-use of the product in multiple units.

This also means that one cannot view the charts on one's computer...

Doug

 

[DougPaul]

3) Much to my surprise, Garmin gave me a free additional unlock code so I could download City Navigator maps into my Garmin Colorado. (I made an email inquiry) But, if I also wanted to use City Navigator a third Garmin device, I would have to pay for another unlock code.

This may depend on which version you bought. When locking codes originally came out, the products included a second lock in the original purchase. From what I have read, Garmin has discontinued this practice on (many? all?) recent products and now includes only one lock with the original purchase.

So far, I have managed to avoid locked maps... Makes things much simpler.

Doug

 

[Remix]

Well, I don't know if they discontinued the practice of giving away a free second unlock code, but they never advertised that they were doing this.

The maps that are locked are the City Street Navigation and all of the ocean charts. I am guessing that the hiking market--which has unlocked maps--is not big enough to worry about piracy.

I know you said that Topo maps are Public Domain, but why shouldn't NOAA ocean charts be public domain as well? Perhaps there is a bigger liability if there is a chart error and thats why Garmin has clamped down. Or they are greedy.

 

[DougPaul]

Well, I don't know if they discontinued the practice of giving away a free second unlock code, but they never advertised that they were doing this.

Given that unlock codes and their management is a frequent source of complaints, I suspect that Garmin is not particularly motivated to advertise them very prominently. As noted earlier, I have successfully avoided them so far--my info on 2 vs 1 codes in several products being included is from comments on several newsgroups. Quite a few posters were highly annoyed to discover they had gotten only 1 lock when they expected 2 (based upon earlier products).

The maps that are locked are the City Street Navigation and all of the ocean charts. I am guessing that the hiking market--which has unlocked maps--is not big enough to worry about piracy.

I know you said that Topo maps are Public Domain, but why shouldn't NOAA ocean charts be public domain as well? Perhaps there is a bigger liability if there is a chart error and thats why Garmin has clamped down. Or they are greedy.

Presumably it depends on who produced and owns the data. The US Government produced the topos (and scans) and put them in the public domain. Street maps are commercially produced by TeleAtlas and Navteq* and they can put whatever conditions and limits on the use of the data that they want. (Garmin road maps used to be from TeleAtlas (up to Metroguide v4.02?), but they switched to Navteq which brought in locking.) I don't know who produces the Blue Chart maps.


* There is also the Tiger road maps (produced for census purposes). These are freely available, but far to inaccurate for use with a GPS.

Doug

 

[SAR-EMT40]

I just want to show some of you why I switched after owning five or six Garmin GPS's since 1992 to the Delorme. The first three are all centered on Mt. Carrigain.


Here is a USGS 7.5 minute map. Not just in the Whites but for any location in the US.

Here is a high resolution Black and White Satellite photo

Here is a high resolution Color Satellite photo

I have zoomed into a spot in the White Mountains. Anyone recognize this very recognizable location?

I have been mentioning this for several years now. Not only do I have this on my computer which is fantastic for planning SAR or camping trips, etc. THEY ARE ALSO LOADED AND VISIBLE ON MY Delorme GPS SCREEN. All of this information is available, as much as you want to download for $30 per year. Of course if you get all the maps and photos you ever need, there is no download limit, then you don't every need to renew. I have seen and used all the Garmin maps including the 2008 topo. There is no comparison. You should also be aware that the resolution of these maps and photos are actually higher than what you are seeing here.

Regards,
Keith

 

[spider solo]

uphillklimber,
just in case we over loaded you with info. to get back to the simpler part of your wondering.... If it is something you will use I would say... yes.

For the paddling end of what you might be interested in I find a GPS comes in real handy in estuaries or fresh water lakes where one bay looks like another and another.

Often I use it at it's simplest. Even in rough weather you can make a mark (waypoint) then 5 minutes later make another one.
That will let you know which direction your going.

So I'm looking for a river leaving the lake....am I getting closer or am I getting further away?
Just looking at the 2 marks you just made will let you know.
(you can always make a third to firm up that each one looks closer and closer to where you want to be or the exact opposite.)

So for me that is why it doesn't sit on the shelf (though I may not be using all it's features at that given time.)

good luck

 

[uphillklimber]

Spider solo, thanks for the less techie answer. Alot of tech savvy folks here. I suspect we would use it much like you describe, at first anyways. I have found that when I buy something with minimum features, it isn't long before I wish I had bought one with more features and/or expandability. I suspect I will buy a more expensive one with more options available. If I get one with too little room in it, I'll have to shelve that one and go ahead and buy the better one anyways.

Will be looking at more this weekend.

 

[uphillklimber]

Well, I gotta say that I find this whole GPS thing a bit overwhelming. As far as trying to learn what i need and all, I'll bet I only caught the tip of the iceberg, but I hope it's the right iceberg. We ended up getting a Delorme PN-40. Waterproof, floats, bright orange, maps come with it, on sale for 25% off list (yup, price always maters).

Only thing is, it is almost like speaking a different language. The directions say things like: " If you are using the PN-Series GPS for anything other than a map transfer or firmware transfer while it is connected to your computer, Data Exchange." I was fine reading this until I came upon "Data Exchange". Can anyone tell me what that means in plain english?

Anyways, I can upon the proverbial brick wall and called tech support. He guided me thru a buch of things, eventually. One of the first questions he asked was do I have a card reader. i told him no. Over the next ten minutes, he reatedly kept saying how much easier this would be a with a card reader. At some point in the future, he may learn that telling me to use an option that is not available, will be fruitless. Can we stay on task, please. Fully half of his conversation was bout the virtues of a card reader, but we can do it other ways.....

Anyways, he sent me a tutorial and I actually have some maps on my GPS!!! Hooray!!!!! I did my neighborhood, and the Mt Washington area. When i zoom in my neighborhood, it shows up similar to what you would see in a delorme map. But when I zoom in on Mt. Washington, it changes to satelite image picture. I'd rather, for now, that it stayed the green map hues that Delorme is known for. And I don't see trails on the map.

I'll play with this device and try to decipher the manual, but can anyone tell me how to do this?

Eventually, I'll have it up and running. I need to work in Freeport the next couple days, I may just stop in their store and have one of their techies just show me....

 

[jniehof]

The directions say things like: " If you are using the PN-Series GPS for anything other than a map transfer or firmware transfer while it is connected to your computer, Data Exchange."

Well, that's leaving out the word "select" and it's referring to the "Connect to computer" page described on the previous page. The GPS has different ways of talking to the computer (pg. 64) and I'm guessing in "Data Exchange" mode it looks like a GPS to the computer, but in "Transfer to SD" or "Transfer to Internal" it looks like a removable drive...it pretends to be one of those USB memory sticks and opens up its storage for more direct manipulation. (One would be to the removable SD card, one would be to the built-in memory.)

So if you're pulling off tracks, or using the GPS to feed real-time data to the computer (not likely), use "Data Exchange." If you have to upload a big map and want it to be faster, use one of the Transfer options.

 

[uphillklimber]

LOL!!! All that, when they could just as easily rpinted "use the data exchange tab located....'

Don't they realize that soem rank newbies will want to try out their gear at some point and they should make it a little bit simple for the simple. The techies will speed read right over it anyways.

sigh....

 

[uphillklimber]

Well, I gotta tell you about this. The guys at Delorme are first class!

But let's back up a little bit. I did call tech support yesterday, and I noticed the call lasted about 12 minutes. He spoke in techie language which was alittle hard for me to follow, and I had to explain to him that I am a rank newbie. He asked if I had a card reader avaialable. I told him no. For about 8 of those 12 minutes he repeated all the virtues of using a card reader (not particularly helpful as it was not a current option). I promise to get a card reader, can you help right now? He did help me a bit. He asked if I put the disc in the PC, I said yes. He guided me thru loading some maps on and I did more later last night. But I was still stymied a bit trying to read the maps.

Today, I stopped in at the Delorme store and asked if anyone could help me out here. I was the only customer, so I got primo help. He loaded in Northern New England maps for me and showed me a few things, enough for me to actually use the GPS and he set it up as I asked him. He showed me the discs he used to load the maps and asked if I was using them or the Topo 8 disc. I said I only got the topo 8 disc, it did not come with those 4 discs. (Apparently, when the tech support guy asked me if the disc was in, I only had the one. Maybe he should have asked if I had the New England disc in...) I suggested that maybe there should be a slip that states what one should find inside the box.

So anyways, the guy manning the counter at Delorme apologized that I spent 6 hours yesterday, reading the book and learning, without all the discs at my disposal. He went out back and gave me the four missing discs!

Real good service at the store. Real good. Tech support, somewhat helpful, could do better. But the guy at the store is my new best friend!