Another Falling Waters Loop Fatality

[skiguy]

“Is there ever a point where freedom of choice and personal accountability needs to be restrained in some manner for a greater good”? No…This thread is sounding like a broken record my self deemed guilty as a contributor. I’m pretty sure everyone here knows where the other stands….at least the regulars here. Bottom line for me is that a real climber/ hiker is self reliant. They do not need some stinkin sign to tell them what to do. If Joey bag of donuts can’t make sense of the situation then so be it. Those folks are beyond help to begin with. Your not going to fix stupid with some sort of Q code or flashing lights. Sorry to sound so crass but these situations are going to occur.

 

[Mike P.]

What does being a National Forest have to do with it? Didn't they close Yellowstone this year after flooding caused road damage and it was unsafe to enter? Don't they close trails out West due to forest fires? They close sections of the AT for bear activity every year. I've skied at places like Wildcat and Cannon where they close trails due to conditions despite my paying for a lift ticket. Public roads get closed all the time for various safety reasons. I don't see what that distinction has to do with it.

I'd prefer not to see closures as well. I'm just posing the possibility as an option considering other places like Baxter have done so. Ultimately isn't that the big question - Is there ever a point where freedom of choice and personal accountability needs to be restrained in some manner for a greater good?

Franconia Ridge has grown beyond the random tragedy every few years. It has become a fairly repetitive problem, where a fairly consistent type of person makes the same basic mistake, in the same basic location, over and over again. All the "usual stuff" is not solving the problem.

One of the things you can do in BSP, Yosemite and other National Parks (Could do at Grand Canyon, GSMNP would be hard though) is restrict access to the park. Few or no people live in it. Access in to several parks are on a few roads only. You can't close every trailhead along 302, and 16, and 112 and off every side road that there is. Blocking a couple of roads at BSP closes the park. Yosemite's, Eastern Gate at Tioga Rd. isn't open (They don't plow it) At least at the South Rim, there are only a couple of ways to get to the Canyon. While the ADK is a State Park like BSP, the population living there makes closure impossible. I'm not for closure but there does appear to be too many who think Franconia Ridge is not the Presidentials and therefore not as dangerous. Maybe it's not, however, we are talking a very small drop off regarding weather exposure above treeline between the two. Staying on the trail for the loop, it's still close to three miles above treeline.

 

[DayTrip]

Bottom line for me is that a real climber/ hiker is self reliant.

I'll just fan the flames one more time and apologize in advance before taking the hose out and say that the "real hiker/climber" is not the problem. And the answer will not likely come from a reply that "they should be like us". I guess I will once again apologize for not being a regular on this forum.

 

[skiguy]

I'll just fan the flames one more time and apologize in advance before taking the hose out and say that the "real hiker/climber" is not the problem. And the answer will not likely come from a reply that "they should be like us". I guess I will once again apologize for not being a regular on this forum.

So we obviously disagree on most of the premises here but that is what healthful discussion is about. By the way you are about as much of the regular guy here as anyone so no need to be facetious. We know who you are. And yes Joey bag of Donuts should be more like us.

 

[Mike P.]

It's very common for people to use the Whites as a training ground for higher places. That's what Kate M. was doing when she perished. Before I went west to climb the high peaks in CA and CO, I spent a winter on Mt. Washington, climbing it at least once, sometimes twice a week for the calendar winter. It prepared me very well for the weather out west and there were times, that other parties would turn around in questionable conditions and I could continue to the summits. The weather on these low elevation peaks is no joke and if you can climb here in bad weather, you can go anywhere in the world and find success. The only thing the Whites lacks is elevation for training purposes, that you learn when you go above 14k.

I know, my point was that the 4K board has tens of thousands of members covering a huge disparity of experience and plans. Kate wasn't lured into this addiction of winter hiking we all share based on some pictures. Some of the 73,000+ members on the FB 4K might be, even if that's 1% of that group, that's 730 people.

 

[Mike P.]

I'll just fan the flames one more time and apologize in advance before taking the hose out and say that the "real hiker/climber" is not the problem. And the answer will not likely come from a reply that "they should be like us". I guess I will once again apologize for not being a regular on this forum.

You are a regular on VFTT, Now pardon me while after having celery for lunch as I'm watching my weight, I'm going to have a Kindt or two that Santa brought me. (Paddling The Nile in 2023 or is that Denial)

 

[TCD]

Distilled from my post on the recent similar thread:

"What can we do different to try and prevent the next young or older individual from this happening again?" Full time, paid trailhead stewards at the major trailheads for human interaction. Over and over it has been shown that people (especially today, vs. say 40 years ago) do NOT pay any attention to signs, online warnings, weather forecasts, etc.. But human contact seems to reach a lot of the people who ignore everything else. But it seems that the "land managers" just don't want to pay for this."

Yes, I know, I'm a broken record. But this has helped in the Adirondacks, to the tiny extent that it has been tried. I have spoken with volunteers who have had success "reaching" hikers who did not listen to anything else, but actually listened to the real human at the trailhead. Not "regulatory" or "police power" but little common sense things like "Do you have a light" "Oh, gee, no." and then they go back to their car and get a light before they head out. Or "You don't really want to do this hike in sandals" and then they go back to their car and change from sandals to sneakers. This is success, and it can save lives.

It's amazingly stupid to me that a method that has been tried a tiny bit, and seems to work to some extent, is not being employed on a much wider scale. For God's sake, this has not been tried on a wide scale, let's find out if it helps. Or maybe we would rather just keep on increasing SAR funds to pluck bodies off the hillside.

 

[DayTrip]

So we obviously disagree on most of the premises here but that is what healthful discussion is about.

No, that is the thing. I do actually agree with yours, and most people's, point of view on most things here on VFTT and in this post. I often post wondering about alternative points of view, "thinking out loud", playing devil's advocate or whatever you want to call it about various other ways of looking at a situation or problem and then generally get roasted for thinking that way. Maybe instead of saying I'm not a regular I should have said I'm not "one of the cool kids"....

 

[Mike P.]

“at least the regulars here. Bottom line for me is that a real climber/ hiker is self reliant.

While true, you don't know what you don't know until you need to know it. Or it's also been said, that It's not what you know that gets you in trouble, it's what you think you know what's true that simply isn't true that will cause chaos.

I know I have the attention span of a squirrel (that may be insulting to squirrels) so with a spreadsheet up I see I've been on 553 summits over 3,000 feet. (in CO, I dug a deep hole to get to 3,000) Over 100 more easily over 2K based on times to Wachsett, Bear (CT), Bare, Tom and Norowtuck, (those are 1K) Race, Everett, and others in Southern New England plus Potash, Willard, etc.) Do I know my stuff or have I been lucky all this time? (Hiking in a Tropical Storm and almost falling asleep driving home from BSP would hint that luck has come into play at least twice) Admitting you really know your stuff is probably the first step toward hubris. (You probably need to answer yes to a few more questions before you really are suffering from hubris)

 

[DayTrip]

Distilled from my post on the recent similar thread:

"What can we do different to try and prevent the next young or older individual from this happening again?" Full time, paid trailhead stewards at the major trailheads for human interaction. Over and over it has been shown that people (especially today, vs. say 40 years ago) do NOT pay any attention to signs, online warnings, weather forecasts, etc.. But human contact seems to reach a lot of the people who ignore everything else. But it seems that the "land managers" just don't want to pay for this."

Yes, I know, I'm a broken record. But this has helped in the Adirondacks, to the tiny extent that it has been tried. I have spoken with volunteers who have had success "reaching" hikers who did not listen to anything else, but actually listened to the real human at the trailhead. Not "regulatory" or "police power" but little common sense things like "Do you have a light" "Oh, gee, no." and then they go back to their car and get a light before they head out. Or "You don't really want to do this hike in sandals" and then they go back to their car and change from sandals to sneakers. This is success, and it can save lives.

It's amazingly stupid to me that a method that has been tried a tiny bit, and seems to work to some extent, is not being employed on a much wider scale. For God's sake, this has not been tried on a wide scale, let's find out if it helps. Or maybe we would rather just keep on increasing SAR funds to pluck bodies off the hillside.

Do the ADK's do this all year round or just Summer/shoulder seasons the way NH tried this past year? Weekends and holidays versus every day? I'd be curious the contrast between doing it all Winter versus Summer? You'd probably reach fewer people but prevent more fatalities versus Summer where you reach more people but reduce relatively non-threatening rescues like "had no light", "got lost", etc. Obviously 365 days a year would be ideal ignoring funding but I wonder if the typical "target" inexperienced hiker doesn't fall into fairly predictable hiking days like Saturdays, holidays, school vacation weeks, etc.

I agree nothing short of grabbing hold of the person at the point of attack and either setting them straight or turning them away is the only path to progress.

 

[Mike P.]

Do the ADK's do this all year round or just Summer/shoulder seasons the way NH tried this past year? Weekends and holidays versus every day? I'd be curious the contrast between doing it all Winter versus Summer? You'd probably reach fewer people but prevent more fatalities versus Summer where you reach more people but reduce relatively non-threatening rescues like "had no light", "got lost", etc. Obviously 365 days a year would be ideal ignoring funding but I wonder if the typical "target" inexperienced hiker doesn't fall into fairly predictable hiking days like Saturdays, holidays, school vacation weeks, etc.

I agree nothing short of grabbing hold of the person at the point of attack and either setting them straight or turning them away is the only path to progress.

We'll what TCD says. Those summer messages usually are enough. I don't think you see a first-timer going out now to hike in the High Peaks or NH. They make the same mistakes, it's just that in summer I can do several things wrong and only have an unpleasent evening. In winter, the margin of error is much thinner. The sandal guy who started wearing sneakers got his sneakers wet in September or October and had really cold feet. They probbaly asked Santa for boots.

 

[Grey J]

These fatalities happen all the time and I don't know if anything can be done to prevent them. Look at the numbers. 22 fatalities in the Whites last year and 21 so far this year but we still have a few days to go. This is not unusual. This is typical. While I am not opposed in general to government regulations that save lives, I would be opposed to any restrictions on hiking based on the stupidity or ignorance of the few. Besides, the scope of restrictions necessary in a multi-access setting like the WMNF is simply not practical. Too many trails. Trail stewards are a great idea, but you can't cover every trailhead and you can't cover 24/7. So, if they're scheduled from say 7 Am to 4 Pm, they're going to miss the early starters like Emily who went out at 5:30 Am. And is a trail steward going to sit in their car at a trailhead in a blizzard in the dark at 7 degrees to intercept the one hiker crazy enough to go out?

I do appreciate the type of thinking evidenced by posts like Day Trip's and TCD's, but I don't think we can stop these deaths any more than we can stop people from engaging in other dangerous behaviors like drunk driving or speeding that lead to preventable deaths. For better or worse, humans are stubborn and independent and will do what they want even when some of us know that what they are choosing to do is ill-advised at best and life threatening at worst. I don't mean to sound heartless but perhaps this is just a form of natural selection. The wise and the prepared survive. The foolish and the clueless perish. I feel bad for their families.

 

[skiguy]

These fatalities happen all the time and I don't know if anything can be done to prevent them. Look at the numbers. 22 fatalities in the Whites last year and 21 so far this year but we still have a few days to go. This is not unusual. This is typical. While I am not opposed in general to government regulations that save lives, I would be opposed to any restrictions on hiking based on the stupidity or ignorance of the few. Besides, the scope of restrictions necessary in a multi-access setting like the WMNF is simply not practical. Too many trails. Trail stewards are a great idea, but you can't cover every trailhead and you can't cover 24/7. So, if they're scheduled from say 7 Am to 4 Pm, they're going to miss the early starters like Emily who went out at 5:30 Am. And is a trail steward going to sit in their car at a trailhead in a blizzard in the dark at 7 degrees to intercept the one hiker crazy enough to go out?

I do appreciate the type of thinking evidenced by posts like Day Trip's and TCD's, but I don't think we can stop these deaths any more than we can stop people from engaging in other dangerous behaviors like drunk driving or speeding that lead to preventable deaths. For better or worse, humans are stubborn and independent and will do what they want even when some of us know that what they are choosing to do is ill-advised at best and life threatening at worst. I don't mean to sound heartless but perhaps this is just a form of natural selection. The wise and the prepared survive. The foolish and the clueless perish. I feel bad for their families.

Excellent post. Thank you for summarizing in a common sense way.

 

[ChrisB]

...... The foolish and the clueless perish. I feel bad for their families.

Well I feel bad for the SAR volunteers.

I wonder when their altruism and willingness to go up Franconia Ridge at night, in sub-zero temps and high winds will be exhausted by the apparently unlimited number of clueless who want to do that hike or "bag" those Winter 4s.

There is a limit to what you can ask or expect of a volunteer.

 

[iAmKrzys]

The pictures make it look so easy though

The right way to fight pictures is with pictures. No one reads the signs or user manuals!

Reposting from an earlier thread @ https://www.vftt.org/forums/showthr...angerous-hikes&p=430221&viewfull=1#post430221

 

[maineguy]

Oh good, a rerun...

 

[TCD]

Do the ADK's do this all year round or just Summer/shoulder seasons the way NH tried this past year? Weekends and holidays versus every day?

Just a few summer weekends, at a couple of the most popular trailheads. TFR can probably chime in with more detail.

The reason the deployment is so tiny is because it's completely unfunded. The so called "land management" agency here (DEC) doesn't do anything to support this, or any other common sense solutions. This is despite the state having the highest taxes in the nation, and virtually unlimited cash. So this is supported by the 46ers (tiny, underfunded volunteer organization) and the Town of Keene (tiny town with tiny budget). As a result, the deployment is very limited.

And yes, Maineguy - more popcorn will be needed if the discussion continues. ��

 

[DayTrip]

Just a few summer weekends, at a couple of the most popular trailheads. TFR can probably chime in with more detail.

The reason the deployment is so tiny is because it's completely unfunded. The so called "land management" agency here (DEC) doesn't do anything to support this, or any other common sense solutions. This is despite the state having the highest taxes in the nation, and virtually unlimited cash. So this is supported by the 46ers (tiny, underfunded volunteer organization) and the Town of Keene (tiny town with tiny budget). As a result, the deployment is very limited.

And yes, Maineguy - more popcorn will be needed if the discussion continues. ��

Do you guys have a "Franconia Ridge" pattern of repetitive rescues in a specific spot? By that I mean a recurring set of fatalities in the same popular place over and over for generally the same reason? I'm not really up to speed on the news out there and I know the area is more spread out than the Whites. Algonquin seems to come up often as a rescue location.

 

[Breeze]

His family said he wasn't an experienced hiker and they were tracking his progress from China? How did he even find out about this hike? Instagram?

At 28 years old, it's more than likely he was a graduate student or a pre or post- doctoral fellow right here in New England. Boston, Hanover NH, New Haven CT. Pick one.

 

[DayTrip]

You can't use trail stewards in the Whites during the winter, it's a ridiculous idea for 20 reasons, I won't even mention.

I'm not talking about all of the Whites. I am talking about a specific, targeted effort to address the fatalities on the Franconia Ridge. Emily left the lot at 4:30AM but the guy in this recent case left at 11AM. He potentially could have been snared by a steward. I believe other past fatalities involved late starts. I agree it is impractical and expensive to blanket the whole state with stewards and results away from the crowds would be limited.