cc skiing

[kmac]

I'm in the market to buy some cc skis and I have little to no knowledge of the differnent brands and "kinds" out there. I want something that can be used on both groomed trails and backcountry trails, is there a ski that can be used for both?
kmac

 

[TomD]

Kmac, I asked this question before and there are several discussions about this here. Also, look at telemarktips.com. I asked the same question there and so have other people.

Look at Pinnah's website-
http://home.comcast.net/~pinnah/DirtbagPinner/dirtbag.html
He has a lot of good info on choosing gear and helped me choose mine.
I bought a pair of Atomic Rainier bc skis. They are 88-60-78. Mine are 170 cm. They are full metal edge double camber, waxless skis. I put Voile 3 pin cable bindings on them, but you could put most anything on them-I'd stay away from a big tele binding though. I put my bindings on G3 15mm risers. My next purchase will be a release kit so I can try some downhill tele on them without tearing up my knees.

For boots, I have a pair of Atomic BC 50 boots. Like the BC 30, except taller I think. Mine were samples; they aren't for sale anywhere I know of. I've seen people (including ski patrol and park rangers) wearing Scarpa T2's and Garmont Excursion plastic boots for touring.

I'm no expert, but I like mine a lot. Not really floaty in powder-too narrow, but fine for most anything else. I've only used mine only a couple of times, including a four day camping trip to Yosemite towing a sled. I got climbing skins for mine-I highly recommend getting some-makes going uphill easy.

Fischer Rebounds are almost the same ski as the Rainier-same dimensions. Fischer also makes some wider skis under the S-Bound name-I think the Outtabound is a wider ski.

 

[snowbird]

Hi KMAC,

Go to a good shop and ask a lot of questions even if you buy elsewhere. I have had great luck at Ragged Mountain and also at the ski shop at Jackson Touring. Some of the EMS stores have really good people too.

If you have the option to rent, that is a really good idea to get a feel for what you like.

In my experience though, one pair is not enough. Pretty soon you find yourself wanting faster skiis for groomed trails, and stronger bindings for backcountry, and better edges for ice, and oh yeah, skating looks like a blast, so maybe some of those, and ...

 

[kmac]

Oh boy !I can see that I have some homework to do. Thanks for your imput. I'm definitely going to rent before purchasing. One more queston, are the cc boots suppose to be a snug fit with limited lateral movement?

kmac

 

[Stan]

This was well covered here and you may be able to find the old threads, one most helpful was highlighted by an extensive explanation by David Metsky, especially on the back country stuff.

Cross country does not necessarily mean groomed trails; breaking new trail is not unusual with xc skis. To me, however, backcountry means steeper routes, more trees and turns, and "groomed" only if somewhat has skied it before you.

I came to the conclusion that cross country and backcountry were sufficiently different that one ski for both purposes would probably leave me unsatisfied for either. In my case I bought Fischer xc but still can't quite get rid of the skis that had served me well for over 30 years. I stuck with the old three pin binding and boot, having seen more failures with the NNN system than the three pin. I'm also a waxless ski proponent, not wanting to mess with waxes when I should be skiing and not such an aficionado to notice or care about the difference.

The season is rapidly coming to a close, at least in flatlandia now that Manny has shown up for spring training, and there should be some attractive sales soon if they haven't already started.

 

[DougPaul]

There is a rather wide range of ski characteristics. Every ski is a compromise trying to be good at some style or range of styles. FWIW, I have 6 pairs of XC or BC (backcountry--heavy duty XC with metal edges) skis plus several pairs of Tele skis.

Dave.M's (pinnah) webpages are very good. You also might find it worth your while to pick up some books on the topic. Many of the books will give a more complete coverage (of their chosen aspect of skiing) than web pages.

These days most of the non-racing traditional XC/BC skis that you will find in the stores are waxless. In decent snow conditions, waxables will significantly outperform waxless. Waxables can also be tuned, for instance, sticky for hill climbing or fast (slippery) for prepared tracks or gentle terrain. (Racing waxing can be difficult, recreational waxing is easy.) Many serious skiers prefer waxables and only use waxless in poorer snow conditions. Only 2 of my pairs of skis are waxless...

Skating is mostly restricted to groomed tracks at commercial areas nd is only occasionally useful for any distance in the BC.

BTW, XC is the commonly used abbreviaion for cross-country skiing.

Doug

 

[trailbiscuit]

Snowbird's advice is sound: Go to a good shop. A "trained professional" will have the best knowledge of the type of gear that will suit your needs. I would also recommend a shop that's at a nordic center. This way you know you're working with someone who is dedicated to the sport.

Also, demo, demo, demo. Try before you buy. This will give the best idea of what will work best for you.

Most importantly, no one ski will do everything. You need a quiver. Then again, I have a problem with gear.

 

[dave.m]

kmac, I would suggest that you start here:

http://home.comcast.net/~pinnah/DirtbagPinner/quick-picks.html

In particular, read the sections on "touring speed" and "striding stability".
The very short version is yes, there are skis that you can use in both places. Stick to skis with tips at or under 70mm. My suggestion is to get the most supportive NNN-BC or SNS-BC boots you can find with a plastic cuffs. Do not under any circumstance get an all plastic telemark boot. These are unsuitable for track skiing.


At the risk of sounding self serving regarding my web site (honestly, I get nothing back from it other than comments), I have a hard time suggesting that kmac look to a) books, b) demos or c) shops for advice. The Nordic Backcountry pages grew out of a lack of decent books that discuss gear. Of all of the books I've read, Dostal and Gillette's "Cross Country Skiing" has one of the best discussions of gear and this is still awfully limited. Demos are very limited for track skis and only slightly less limited for telemark gear. I've seen only a few stores that offered rentals of nordic backcountry but that's rare and hardly a comparative demo program. Finally, shop help is one of the worst places I've encountered to get help on nordic backcountry gear. Either the shop help consists of nordic racer types who push racing gear or more commonly kids who've never been on nordic backcountry gear and have are experts because they sat through 15 minutes of a shop clinic.

 

[skiguy]

Finally, shop help is one of the worst places I've encountered to get help on nordic backcountry gear. Either the shop help consists of nordic racer types who push racing gear or more commonly kids who've never been on nordic backcountry gear and have are experts because they sat through 15 minutes of a shop clinic.

I totally disagree with this comment. Having been a shop employee for over Twenty years and having worked with others that have comparative experience if not more there is plenty of good shop help out there. Ragged Mt. and the Mountaineer among others have employees with collective experience that probably predate metal edges on skis. kmac if you PM me I would be glad to give you some names of some shop employees out there that are more than qualified to help you.

 

[dave.m]

Skiguy,

I'll soften up my statement but only by a very small amount. You are totally correct that if you can travel to destinations (like the N Conway area), you have a better chance at finding both a) decent gear selection for nordic backcountry gear and b) shop staff that uses it on a regular basis.

Next time you travel outside of N Conway, I would invite you to go into other retailers and play dumb and go through the motions of buying stuff. The number of folks I've found at Boston or Burlington, VT based retailers who actually use nordic backcountry gear is very, very limited.

Please note.... this is not to denegrate retailers in anyway. The key for retail viability is turnover rate of stock and nordic backcountry gear is a low volume set of gear. I wouldn't expect to find retailers (outside of destination towns like N Conway) who would be able to attract hard core users as employees.

Just to doubly reiterate the point, there are some really good knowledgable shop employees out there. It's just that the chance of finding them when you walk off the street is very, very small.

Note.... the same problem exists for buyers of touring bikes. Most shops deal predominately in racing bikes, mtbs or bmx bikes. The number of shops that have employees with any meaningful touring experiences is just about nil. I would never send somebody who is looking for a touring bike out with the advice of just find a good shop to help guide you.

 

[skiguy]

Skiguy,

I'll soften up my statement but only by a very small amount. You are totally correct that if you can travel to destinations (like the N Conway area), you have a better chance at finding both a) decent gear selection for nordic backcountry gear and b) shop staff that uses it on a regular basis.

Next time you travel outside of N Conway, I would invite you to go into other retailers and play dumb and go through the motions of buying stuff. The number of folks I've found at Boston or Burlington, VT based retailers who actually use nordic backcountry gear is very, very limited.

Please note.... this is not to denegrate retailers in anyway. The key for retail viability is turnover rate of stock and nordic backcountry gear is a low volume set of gear. I wouldn't expect to find retailers (outside of destination towns like N Conway) who would be able to attract hard core users as employees.

Just to doubly reiterate the point, there are some really good knowledgable shop employees out there. It's just that the chance of finding them when you walk off the street is very, very small.

Note.... the same problem exists for buyers of touring bikes. Most shops deal predominately in racing bikes, mtbs or bmx bikes. The number of shops that have employees with any meaningful touring experiences is just about nil. I would never send somebody who is looking for a touring bike out with the advice of just find a good shop to help guide you.

Agreed Now I guess you all know why I live where I do...My name is skiguy and I am a Gear Junky.

 

[trailbiscuit]

The number of folks I've found at Boston or Burlington, VT based retailers who actually use nordic backcountry gear is very, very limited.

This was the jist of my post. Don't go to GloboGear or other generic sporting goods store. And, as it has been stated on this site in other threads, you can't always assume since your in an EMS or REI the staff is knowledgable. But your chance there is better than at say, Dick's.

 

[chipc]

This was the jist of my post. Don't go to GloboGear or other generic sporting goods store. And, as it has been stated on this site in other threads, you can't always assume since your in an EMS or REI the staff is knowledgable. But your chance there is better than at say, Dick's.

Last year REI Boston sold XC skis and I was able to get some reasonable advice from the staff on waxless track skis.

This year I stopped in to get glide wax for my waxless skis and was told that they don't sell XC skis (or XC supplies) any more in the Boston store. Overall, the collective knowledge in the Boston branch seems to have declined as they have moved to becoming a "fashion" store. So now I only use it as a convenient place to pick up my on-line orders.

 

[--M.]

I don't really see a conflict of interest for the site if people provide honest testimonials, and I'll gladly tout the good guys when I can. I have had good experiences at both The Mountaineer (Keene Valley, NY) and International Mountain Equipment (North Conway, NH). I've been an EMS customer since my first Fabianos in the seventies, but I can't currently vouch for the North Conway (or any other) store. The guys at The Mountaineer also had good local knowledge of spots for various skill levels, from skiing out of the Loj to visiting one of the commercial places like Gore.

I'm still using skinny, hand-me-down, edgeless skis, and I plan on shopping in Keene Valley when I upgrade.

 

[kmac]

Thanks everyone for your great info. I'll be sure to check out the websites suggested. I did rent 2 pairs of XC skis form EMS, one is the Nordic Crusin by Fischer and the other a BC Outbound Crown by Fischer. Tried them both and found the BC pair easier to handle, although I must say it isn't as easy as it looks, if anyone was watching they were having good laugh
thanks : )
kmac

 

[trailbiscuit]

although I must say it isn't as easy as it looks

You might want to think about taking a lesson somewhere. IMHO, this will drastically improve your enjoyment of the sport and allow you to ski more efficiently, thereby saving more energy, thereby skiing further. The skis would be closer to the Nordic Cruisers you were on, but learning the basics would be the key.

 

[DougPaul]

Last year REI Boston sold XC skis and I was able to get some reasonable advice from the staff on waxless track skis.

REI Reading still sells XC skis, except their stock may be pretty low this year. Some of the salesmen are pretty good.

Doug

 

[chipc]

REI Reading still sells XC skis, except their stock may be pretty low this year. Some of the salesmen are pretty good.

Doug

Agreed - have had lots of good help in the Reading store with hiking boots, snowshoes etc. The Boston store happens to be a short walk from work for me, so its just a little disappointing not to be able to have the convenience.

Chipc

 

[bikehikeskifish]

I have had positive experiences at the Waterville Valley shop. You want to ask for Steve. Stay away from anyone selling passes at the register.

I can also emphatically support The West Hill Shop: http://www.westhillshop.com/ in Putney, VT.

Tim

 

[dave.m]

Tried them both and found the BC pair easier to handle, although I must say it isn't as easy as it looks, if anyone was watching they were having good laugh
thanks : )
kmac

kmac,

I spoke to a former product manager from alpina and he said it well. BC stands for "better control" as well as "backcountry". This is why I suggested NNN-BC/SNS-BC boots. The same goes for BC skis. In general, they'll give you a bit more control too.

Some suggestions on learning.... As others have suggested, take some xc lessons. Next time you go north, spend a day (or 2 or 3) skiing at a nordic center and taking some lessons.

If the downhilll bits are making you tense, I would suggest spending a day at a downhill area taking a beginners lesson or 2. Alpine gear will give you more support while you are learning the basics of the wedge. Then when you come back to the xc gear, your muscles will know what to do.

Lastly, the best thing you can while in CT is to skate at a local rink. All forms of skiing are sliding on snow/ice. The more you get used to sliding the more confident you'll be on skis.