Ever tell a newbi to turn around?

[Grumpy]

p.s. Coldfeet, you worry too much Find a nice group and go have fun, that's what these mountains are about.

An amusing note!

"Find a nice group and go have fun . . ." is great advice. I think it's also OK for beginners (I really dislike the term "newbies" which always seems so condescending . . .) to team up and go it alone in trying out their hiking legs under most circumstances. It's not always necessary to have a grizzled and experienced guide. And even grizzled old coots have more to learn, despite their years or decades of experience. (That's what you learn as you get those decades of experience under your belt.)

Maybe Coldfeet does "worry too much." I know that remark was made in jest and fun, but on a serious note there's no harm in looking for answers to what's eatin' at you. Fact is, asking is a darned smart thing to do. So let's appreciate and applaud the fact that Coldfeet's "public" fretting here has generated a pretty good discussion!

G.

 

[twigeater]

Calling it quits is never a problem...I do try to pay attention when I'm with someone who hasn't hiked before...I don't want anyone "toughing it out," it's supposed to be fun! Since I'm just looking for time outside or in the woods, it's no big deal not to make a summit.

Advice to people along the trail is sometimes a good or necessary thing (like Nadine's story on Abol) but sometimes it's not. I met a guy on the Tuckerman ravine trail who thought I should have hiking poles - I thought it was a personal choice, and had not asked his opinion. On a trip up to the Carter Notch hut last New Years I met a couple of guys coming down the trail who stopped and looked over my pack and commented on my gear - which apparently met with their approval. I caught up with some guys ahead of me who said they were real happy those guys were headed down. I asked if they were the trail police or something (I don't hike in the White's much) and they said no, they were just butt heads. LOL!

This past summer I was hiking with three people from another site, when we met a group of young people in bathing suits and flip flops. They had taken a wrong turn and hiked some 4 miles in the wrong direction. My group wanted to get to a camp before dark and still had a few hours drive after the hike out. I tried to explain on the map where they were, hiked with them for a bit, then said I had to catch up with the guys. I didn't feel right about leaving them, though they said they had food and water, so I waited and finished the hike out with them. They were glad and it seemed to make them more comfortable.

The discussion my group had after the hike out surprised me, but I'm glad I hiked with the others.

 

[Stan]

I lead groups that sometimes consist of "newbies" and try to design the trip to help assure a positive experience yet an experience where they've tested their limits. There is a lot of satisfaction in that for a new hiker.

It is a matter of judgement when to turn around; I generally try to get people to push on a little more but won't hestitate to turn back if it could result in a possible danger to anyone on the trip. Differentiating danger from temporary discomfit is not always as easy as it would seem. It helps to know your victims ... er, companions. An experienced hiker, if taking responsibility ofa ny kind for a beginner, should screen that person to be better aware of conditioning, related experience, medical issues etc.

A few rules I use for going furthest with a group I lead: 1) shorter more frequent breaks rather than a few prolonged breaks, 2) nag about hydrating, 3) continuous munching ("grazing") on short term energy producing foods (e.g. fruits, fruit juices, trail mix) rather than less frequent larger snacks/meals, and 4) be prepared to finish in the dark.

And, there is no shame in turning back.

 

[Neil]

I’ve never had to tell anybody to turn around but I once told someone in the middle of a planning session that they should not even come on a trip. The person wasn’t too thrilled and I suppose I looked like a hard nosed s.o.b. It was going to be 40 below all week and he had never done any outdoor stuff before let alone camp out. When he said he was going to wear a bunch of zipup cotton gym jackets to stay warm I realized I did not want to take a chance on my trip being wrecked. To be perfectly honest, that worried me more than his security.

 

[twigeater]

I remember a BSP winter trip where one guy said he backpacked, but had never been out overnight in any season.
LOL...once I got through with the gear list and other winter "need to knows," he bowed out on his own.

 

[twigeater]

Oh yeah...I have a friend who would consider herself "experienced" who needs to be constantly reminded to eat and drink in winter. She's been hypothermic or close to it on more than one occasion and often comments on how much food I have in my pack.

 

[percious]

By the way out of the 7 experienced hikers.. I carried the first aid, small $20 emergency bivy bag..xtra fleece and shell..rain pants.. 3-4 liters of water..10 essentails ..2 headlights... duct tape.. xtra gloves and socks.. lighter and waterproof matches..I think only one other person had safety gear..all of the threads i read on this site are extremely useful! thank you! I might have overpacked for a few hours but i thought about the "What if?"

A) Good for you bringing emergency gear, especially with dicey weather.

B) You did not overpack. You just have gear to expect the unexpected.

Last weekend at Monadnock, we ran into an injured hiker (who had hurried by us earlier) only to find that no one in his group of 5 carried any first aid. On top of that, everyone just froze when he hurt himself, and know one even knew what to do with him. I felt weird taking over, but 1) I had a first aide kit. 2) I knew what to do. I encourage you to continue carrying your ten essentials, and even step it up a notch by taking a 1st aide class. Could save you or your buddies life.

-percious

 

[Maddy]

inot feeling good at all, light headed, cold & i just was not feeling comfortable finishing the hike . when i told my partner i had to go back they did not offer to come back with me but said they'd come all that way & wanted to finish the hike so i headed back by myself. i wasn't sure at the time whether or not to be upset by this because i didn't know what other hikers did in this situation.

Excellent post Shadowcat!
I think this is why discussing hiking protocol before you set out on an adventure with someone is critical. Experienced or not! I would have been upset if someone did this to me and from the input of people here I think most of us would not do it to someone else. What if got sicker/weaker/ colder/ unable to continue.
Hiking solo, we are on our own and we accept the risk and responsibility.
Hiking with others implies that we are in this together.
If I were feeling ill, I would ask the person to accompany me back. If they refused, and I had the car keys, I might just leave them at the trailhead to hike home. JUST KIDDING! Or even better.....a note saying "Pick you up later.
I'm off to the hospital!"
It would most certainly be the last hike I did with this individual.
Over the years I have had similar things happen, even some lost kids, because we had not set clear guidelines before going off into the "big mountains." Lesson learned.
As you quoted "The mountains will always be there......."

 

[coldfeet]

Thx for info.. all the responses were cool! Just thinking ahead about the "beginner 4000 ft snowshoe hike" at the winter gathering. I'm trying to practice before that so that I'm mentally and physically strong but it's going to happen in late Dec..

 

[mavs00]

Calling it quits is never a problem...I do try to pay attention when I'm with someone who hasn't hiked before...I don't want anyone "toughing it out," it's supposed to be fun! Since I'm just looking for time outside or in the woods, it's no big deal not to make a summit.

and

I lead groups that sometimes consist of "newbies" and try to design the trip to help assure a positive experience yet an experience where they've tested their limits. There is a lot of satisfaction in that for a new hiker.

Interesting contrast in statements. I suppose one has to look inwardly at the motivation/objective/goal of each particular hike/hiker, which is a individual consideration certainly. I can tell you for sure that while completing the NY 46 with my wife and two children (ages 13 and 11), you can bet your sweet bippy, that at some point during the journey, every single one of us had moments that we felt we were "toughing it out" and not particularly enjoying ourselves (some more often than others ).

Some times, there is absolutly NOTHING wrong with that (IMO), In fact, it will often make the summit/46er completion/115 completion (or whatever) all the more exciting/exhilarating. I distintly recall the feeling of real pride and acomplishment that came with "reaching the 46" and it sure wasn't because it I skipped my way to all the summits. The struggle of the journey and self-discovery that came along with it was part of the fun of it.

It was that way on my very first summit and it was that way on my last stroll (a particularly nasty bushwhack). I think that is part of what hooks a lot of us new folks in and makes us "old timers" many years later.

The real trick is the finding the (sometimes) very fine line between "going beyond personal comfort" and "going beyond reasonable safety". As long as safety is the overiding consideration, your fine. There are plenty of GOOD hiking groups out there and from my experience of hiking with a few of the folks from this board, chances are, you will NOT go wrong with hiking with the vast majority of folks from this community.

Thats been my experience anyway

 

[Grumpy]

Once more, Mavs00 shares wonderful insights.

Great point, the one about differentiating between that which is difficult and that which is pushing beyond the margin of safety.

It is wise and important to stay in bounds when it comes to safety issues. (Let’s not interpret that statement as advocating rigidly no-risk behavior, though, because it doesn't and isn't so intended.)

But I don’t necessarily think it’s all that good an idea to make it a rule to avoid taking beginners (or anyone else) into situations that will be uncomfortable or difficult for them. Overcoming discomfort and difficulty can add significantly to a sense of accomplishment, which often is what spells the difference between a hike that is mere fun and one that is grandly rewarding and genuinely memorable. What’s life without challenges?

But, of course, individuals are motivated by different things. Mrs. Grumpy, for example, has a real aversion to discomfort, to the point that she really is “done” for the day when she becomes physically or emotionally uncomfortable as we go. Challenges be darned; Pretty Grumpy is a comfort person.

On more than one occasion in bluebird weather Mrs. G has plopped down and said “no mas” literally within yards of a summit, quite satisfied in what she accomplished and seeing no need to go further. This can be pretty frustrating for Yours Truly, and in the early years of our generally happy 36-year marriage I found it very annoying and let her know it was. Mrs. G’s behavior was beyond my comprehension in those days.

Now I have come to understand and appreciate that Mrs. G’s discomfort is very real to her -- real enough to overcome any desire for pressing on to the top. And real enough that her emotional state places my Little Love Muffin at risk of injury (from concentrating on her unhappiness rather than her footing). So we turn around, and that’s that.

If I am in a “summit or bust” frame of mind, I find somebody else to hike with, or go it alone.

G.

 

[Jasonst]

I dragged my older brother up Washington once. I was quite fit and he wasn't. I just smiled as he tried to keep my pace - remembering all those times when he beat the snot out of me when I was little. Revenge is best served cold (and it was)

 

[ALGonquin Bob]

Coldfeet,
I thought that you did fine on Noonmark - you're not such a newbie. I guess the answer depends on who you're hiking with. I think that most hikers are responsible and sensible; if a hiker wants to turn back, or if the group (or your partner) feel that it's best if a member of the party goes back, then you should not need to hike out solo.

Once, I hiked to a summit with a friend. The conditions were not ideal to continue, although I considered it. My partner was hesitant to continue, so I had no problem turning back. If you hike with somebody who gives you a hard time for wanting to stop, or who would let you hike out alone in poor weather condiitons, find a different partner.

I'll post my winter hikes as they come up, so maybe we (with your son?) can hike some winter peaks.

 

[sijesi]

Set up the parameters before you go. That's the easiest if you're leading a group. Also, try a "test" hike before you go, so you can better gauge what the limitations of the group are."

Very good advice. I was the newbie some years back. With no prior experience with winter camping/peak bagging, I decided to join my old college buddies on a trip to summit Mount Rainier. I bought all the equipment necessary and felt ready to go. That's when one of the afore-mentioned buddies announced that my presence would be "mandatory" on a trip to climb Gothics in the Dacks before we all headed out to Washington and Rainier.

What an eye-opener. I was in no shape to be doing anything of the sort. I barely made it to the shelter at Lower Wolfjaw. I made a half-hearted attempt the next day to summit with my friends, but I turned myself around before we hit any steep pitches. My friends could see the shape I was in and did not kid me about what was still in store before the summit. I appreciated that. I went back to the lean-to; my buddies summited.

It was embarrassing for me. Humiliating. Especially when I realized that I'd have to go home and tell everyone that I would not, after all, be going to Rainier, and that I'd have to tell them all -- including my kids -- why.

But I think about what might have happened if I hadn't had that experience, what a complete drag it would have been to learn my lesson on the flank of Rainier, in the midst of serious climbers, not all of whom were going to be close friends of mine. I'm glad my buddy had the foresight to have me go on the practice trip. I recommend that plan to everyone contemplating bringing a newbie along, especially if it's a big trip involving serious monetary outlay and time commitment.

PS-- I've since gotten into reasonable shape and have summited several of the High Peaks in the Dacks with those same buddies. I don't always have the juice to summit. When I don't, I go back to camp and boil water for everyone and make tea to await the return of the summiting party. I'm jokingly referred to as "camp wife" on those occasions, but I don't mind. The stark beauty of winter camping can't be beat. And even if I don't summit, I've had an experience that probably 95 percent of the people I meet will never have.

 

[Jim lombard]

I had a high school kid with me on a hike up Valley Way to Mt Madison in November a few years ago. It took us five hours to reach the hut (should take 3.) Conditions were getting bad, blowing snow high winds and it was 1pm. We looked up as a veil of cloud parted revealing Madison which is only a half mile away. But it was two o-clock, he didn't have crampons and we turned back without summiting.

Posted by sijesi

I've had an experience that probably 95 percent of the people I meet will never have.

Well put. I remember back when I was new to hiking a grizzled veteran of the trails once told me that millions of people live within easy driving distance of the Appalachian mountains yet only a few ever get out here, I wonder why.

 

[LittleBear]

My experience has been that it is much easier to turn around with "experienced" hikers than it is with "newbies" or "beginners." On the last two "Flags on the 48" I have had to deal with beginner hikers who have bit off way more than they could chew. In both instances, these people knew of the difficulty of the hike before starting out.

The first one, we all kept asking if she wanted to turn around, offering to accompany her back (she didn't want to "ruin" our day), giving her the car keys so she could make herself comfortable until we got back. She was determined to make it to the top of Jefferson - which she did, but because it took her so long, she didn't have much time to rest before we were headed down. The hike down was LOOOONNGGGG. I stayed with her as she was clearly distressed and very tired. Every step was an effort for her. I felt bad, but there wasn't much I could do for her except encourage her on and give her water and food (which she initially tried to refuse). She was totally done in by the time we got to the parking lot (I think it took us more than 3 hours). Although she still had a smile on her face, it was agony for me to watch her hike down. Not sure if she ever went hiking again.

The next time was this September and again, we had an individual who tried to undertake a hike (which he knew was difficult) that was really beyond his physical ability. Since he was coming by separate vehicle and already knew he wouldn't meet us at our start time, we had no opportunity to discourage him or turn him around. Again - there was a determination to complete the hike and he didn't realize how much the uphill would tax him. He didn't reach the summit of Adams until nearly 1:45 (beginning around 7:30 at Appalachia). Again, he didn't have much time to rest before we started down. He was having so much trouble coming down that he actually stopped at the hut to see if he could spend the night there (couldn't - no room). So we continued on to the parking lot. Almost had to use headlamps - we didn't get back until 7:30!! It was a long hike down and again, very painful to watch his every step.

I find that when a beginner has a certain amount of determination to complete the hike, that unless you are facing life-threatening or nasty weather conditions, it is very difficult to turn them around. On the other hand, I have been on several hikes with experienced hikers where we get to a point and look at each other and say - do you really want to continue? Naw! is the answer that quickly comes and we turn around.

 

[shadowcat]

"turning around"

i think it was littlebear that said: My experience has been that it is much easier to turn around with "experienced" hikers than it is with "newbies" or "beginners."
that's true if you think about it. as a somewhat experienced hiker i KNOW when i can't go on for whatever reason or if i can push it and finish. a new person, who may never have hiked before just may not know yet what their limit is like knowing the difference between being winded & just needing a bit of rest or it's time to call it quits & go back.. i've had a few hikes where i was in major pain, like the time i was having the worst pain in my side & lower back & wanted to get down and crawl up the mountain. but this time, i knew i could push on & we were over 1/2 there so going back down would have been just as painful as finishing. i finished, got to the top, took some pain meds, got a massage, took a nap and when i woke up felt awesome! although i haven't often had to turn around, like i said before i can tell if the hike we originally planned on might not be a good one for me that day. best part of that is: there's all kinds of hikes so i never have to go without! there's beautiful hikes where you don't even have to climb up a mountain! i am just happy to be out there enjoying it & not stuck in my apartment!

 

[coldfeet]

To AIG,, thx for encouragment.. I had fun that day but I can't compare it with the "tough" hikes because Marcy was just a long one, so i really don't know my limit..but my son has no fear and he wants to go.

Sijesi made a great comment about a pre trip, that's what I'm trying to do, but the ADK trip is one week before the gathering, I'm trying to go somewhere to practice during the holiday vacation in late Dec.

Guess I'm out of the closet and after reading some web sites I became a little nervous about winter hiking..(30 foot slide) I have no problem admitting it..I'll get over it after some experience..thx

 

[Bushwacked]

Someone mentioned w/ new hikers, having them help define the route is a great way to hike w/ newbies and I totally agree. In addition to getting them involved (and excited) early on and providing a forum to discuss (and emphasize) the gear needed, it helps them take "responsibiltiy" for the hike.

I've found that they're much more willing to push themselves phyically (not to exhaustion) and make the extra effort than on a hike where the route and the gear's been laid out for them.

Again, safely of course. It's a "we can do this" instead of quitting because they're a little tired or little uncomfortable in the weather.

It's not a "we can try this and if everything turns out just right, we might make it and get back to the car just a little after dark and if not, it overnight in the woods w/ a wet/cold bivvy!". Smart turnarounds are for all hikers/climbers/backpackers, not just newbies.

I've found in safe conditions, the newbie has much more invested and a greater feeling of accomplishment. Plus a greater sense of what they're capable of.

And yes, I'm a bit of a hard ass but a nice hard ass. That said, if we've bit off more than we can swallow, we turn together and make haste to the car where I've usually stashed some cold Newcastles and Sierras to celebrate the bold attempt!