Fitness levels and training (What the HECK!!?)

[CMahoney]

I agree with Kaseri that nutrition and mental strength play a role in how fast you can move out there. I disagree about strength being so important. I think longer endurance work is way more important. I am sure if you put in more cardio work, treadmill, stairclimber, exercise bike, hiking, and back off the strength training, you will see improvements on your ability to hold a solid pace for longer. I also believe that if you want to be better or faster at something you need to do that thing more. You want to be better and faster at hiking. Hike more. Good luck!

 

[rup]

My wife is going to restart yoga so she can be fit enuff to go with me to Ktaadn. Walking as well. She, too, hikes slowly - literally 1 mph.

 

[smitty77]

In my opinion mental strength cannot be acquired or taught. You either have it and can push your body through pain and fatigue or you don't.

Tyler Hamilton broke his collarbone in a crash in the 2002 Tour of Italy, an injury that knocks most riders out of the Tour even with the aid of illegal performance enhancing drugs (There's doping in cycling??? ). But Hamilton rode, and rode well enough to take second place. And then went home to have 11 of this teeth replaced/recapped since he had ground them down severely over the course of 3 weeks.

That is performing through pain. No question.

 

[naturegirl]

Considering the original post of this thread was seeking advice about increasing hiking speed, I think cardio and endurance training are far more important and can be achieved by incorporating aerobic activities. For muscle endurance (sustaining muscle contraction over an extended period of time with less fatigue), high reps with low weight is the usual recommendation. Strength endurance uses repetitive force over a shorter period of time. Mental endurance is also necessary, but listening to your body is equally important and can prevent injuries. Other important factors are efficient movement, balance, flexibility, stretching, and staying fueled and hydrated.

 

[jfb]

However...when hiking...I am quite slow. We average a little less more than 1 mile per hour (usually a 10 mile hike that isn't excessively steep, technically difficult takes us about 8 hrs). The killer is the up hills...they KILL ME!!! I end up huffing and puffing after quite a very short time. Also, we are usually DONE after a 12 mile hike...and were damn near DEAD after one that is 14 miles (in the early summer no less!!) True, we usually over pack (our winter packs usually hit the 30 - 40 lb range) but still...I work out and am fairly fit!!! What the heck?

I see on this forum some who (please don't be offended) do not "appear" fit but who really BURN THOSE TRAILS!! And would think nothing about doing a 20 miler as a day-hike...regardless of the steepness!!!

SO...what the HECK am I doing wrong?

You may find that aerobic base training may help.

Several years ago I tried to improve my hiking performance by going faster, steeper and longer. During a hike, I'd get a good burn and get my heart rate up to 160 - 180 bpm. Afterwards, I'd be spent and it would take a few days for the soreness to go away. Nowadays, I hike book time at a heart rate of 120 - 130 bpm and at the end of a hike, I feel like I get a good workout but don't get sore.

 

[kaseri]

For some reason people seem to think strength endurance training means low weight and high reps. This couldn't be further from the truth. The following was taken directly from Bodybuilding.com -

So Should We Use High Reps And Low Weight?

Tradition tells us that to train for endurance, we need to use sets of higher reps with lower weight.

WRONG!!!

If we are looking for increased strength endurance, then that means essentially that we want to be as strong as possible for as long as possible. So, instead of giving it your all for one quick burst and then crapping out, you want to be able to keep exerting yourself for extended periods of time. Now, do you think you can attain this strength-endurance by pumping out countless reps with a lighter weight? No way - that would be like telling a 400 lb. bench presser that he'll increase his strength endurance by doing countless pushups. An increase in endurance, maybe. An increase in strength-endurance, nope.

So How DO We Increase Strength-Endurance?

To increase strength-endurance, you need a program that accomplishes three things: uses heavy weight, requires shortening rest periods, and utilizes volume.

Strength-Endurance = Heavy Weights + Short Rest + Volume

This is where people misunderstand the difference between endurance and strength endurance. Two very different things.

Do all the low weight high rep exercise you want. Your cardio will most likely improve but your ability to hike/climb/whatever faster and stronger wont improve much. You want to hike faster and be stronger? Load a pack with 40-60 lbs and do stadium stairs for 2 hours, 3-5 times per week. Everyone should give that a try sometime. It really puts your "strength" and "fitness" into perspective plus you'll save money on gym memberships and you'll be stronger and faster in the mountains, Guaranteed.

It's that easy.

 

[bikehikeskifish]

So, if you would, please describe a strength workout and a strength-endurance workout in terms of sets, reps, time, and weight (include a hypothetical 1-rep max and either % or absolute values for S and S-E.) Let's take squats as an example.

I think the disconnect you are seeing is more at the gym/lifting level, because that was the bulk of this discussion. I view stadium stairs for 2 hours straight as an endurance workout.

Strength-Endurance on the bike is analogous to a Individual Time Trial workout (ITT) on the bike, where you go X minutes at 105% LT, recover for some % of X (50% or so), and then repeat. I.e., 10 minutes on, 5 minutes off, etc.

I will try and remember to dig out the Cyclist's Training Bible tonight to confirm what I remember.

Thank you,
Tim

 

[Chip]

"Just Do It"

You guys are into this too deep for my head. If I could do stadium stairs for 2 hours with 80lbs, I'd be stronger and have more endurance than if I could do stadium stairs for 1 hour with 40 lbs.

I still like my low-tech, short, steep hill with a backpack.

 

[kaseri]

Indeed stadium stairs for 2 hours is an endurance event. When you add a heavy pack it becomes strength endurance. In my mind the word endurance the same as what most people call cardio. Strength in my mind equals strength endurance which is likely not what most people think of when they hear the word strength.

In it's simplest form a strength workout would be bench pressing a given amount of weight for a given amount of reps with a given amount of sets and duration of breaks.

A beginners strength endurance workout would be bench pressing 60-70% of your 1RM for 60 seconds with 60 seconds rest for 15 sets. Then adding 5-10 lbs of your 1RM each week or two while decreasing your rest.

The above examples are very rough.

Since were talking about hiking, the best way is to load a pack with heavy weight and hit stadium stairs for long workouts. Your cardio will improve greatly as will your capacity for work (strength endurance). Proper sport specific strength endurance training will make a 40 lb pack feel light.

More importantly everyone has a means to an end and if it works for you then it's the greatest workout/training that you can do. All this training talk has me tired out

 

[bikehikeskifish]

Here is some material from which I worked when I raced - 1996 through 2005. I am quoting from "The Cyclist's Training Bible", by Joe Friel, 1996.

Strength-Training Phase pp 150-151

Maximum Strength (MS)
...to teach the central nervous system to easily recruit high numbers of muscle fibers

Power Endurance (PE)
...to develop the capacity to quickly recruit most of the fibers for a movement and to sustain their use. example - attacking short, steep hills, or a long finishing sprint...

Muscular Endurance (ME)
... is the heart of training for endurance sports... purpose is to extend the ability to manage fatigue at high load levels by increasing capillary density and the number and size of mitochondria--energy production sites within the muscles.

It is the Muscular Endurance which I think of as strength endurance and what applies most here.

On. p. 154 there is a table.

                            MS     PE     ME
Load(% of 1rep max)       80-90  30-50  30-50
Sets                       3-5    3-6    2-5
Reps                       3-6    6-10  40-60
Recovery(min)              2-4    2-5  0.5-1

So there is agreement on shortening the recovery time, but as I recalled, the weight is considerably lighter than the maximum strength at 30-50% of the 1RM. (note that the ranges depend on your experience level and specific training goals, strengths and weaknesses.)

Tim

 

[Billy]

Hikes-with-him,

Rather than tell you what to do, I'll tell you what does and doesn't work for me.

Weight lifting: Upper body, I do it for vanity. Doesn't help me one bit with regards to hiking. I want to look good (well, not good, but at least less bad) in jeans and a t-shirt. Vanity plain and simple. Lower body, huge hiking benefit. Lower body workout with weights has helped big time on uphills but even more on down hills. Also has helped reduce knee pain (stronger muscles surrounding the knee helps alot).

Strengthening the core (abs, back, and butt): obvious benefits

Mental toughness: Just another phrase for masochism. I work out in my garage....85 in the summer, 35 in the winter....I hate gyms, too much wasted time for me (driving there and back, waiting for the machines, weights, not to mention the crappy music and the guidos, etc). It can be (gradually) taught/learned, just ask any Marine Corps drill instructor.

Stairmaster: Tried it a few times, hurts my knees.

Biking: Never considered it exercise, probably because of where I lived, too flat and not enough open space. Plus the seats always hurt my junk.

Running: Great for hiking. I need to do it more. I like to mix jogging with sprinting on the same run.

Stairs: Without a doubt THE best training for hiking is when I visit the 9-story building near my house. My pack is about 20-25 pounds. Going up the stairs is a no-brainer, but going down the stairs has helped me more than any other excercise I've done (for hiking). Going up mountains has always been "easy" for me; going down has always sucked. Stair workouts have helped me immensely.

Blue Hills: Whites are too far for every weekend, but the Blue Hills have some very steep (but short) spots. I try to punish myself on those spots by going up and down repeatedly. I often carry rocks on the way up and dump them at the top (if the blue hills are getting higher it's partly my fault).

Listening to my body: Always room for improvement, but in general if my muscles and lungs burn, I keep doing it. If my joints hurt, I stop doing it.

Eating: Minimize the amount of crap I eat. Five minutes of stupidity in the kitchen can negate a great 45 minute workout.

30-40 pounds on a non-solo winter day hike seems like alot. Like others have said, you're probably humping too much stuff.

 

[smitty77]

Biking: Never considered it exercise, probably because of where I lived, too flat and not enough open space. Plus the seats always hurt my junk.

BEST response in the whole thread!

 

[bikehikeskifish]

Biking: Never considered it exercise, probably because of where I lived, too flat and not enough open space. Plus the seats always hurt my junk.

BEST response in the whole thread!

My first inclination was more of "Too bad, you never had a properly sized, fitted and adjusted bicycle." I have 40,000+ miles under my "junk" without problems (March will be 15 years of 50 miles+ per month including all winter.) I wouldn't want aspiring cyclists to be put off by this.

People in Florida ride highway overpasses and into the wind for additional resistance, considering the HP is 345 feet.

Tim

 

[kaseri]

My first inclination was more of "Too bad, you never had a properly sized, fitted and adjusted bicycle.

I too am an avid cyclist and primarily ride a fixed gear bicycle although I do have a touring bicycle as well. For those that don't know a fixed-gear bicycle (or fixed wheel bicycle) is a bicycle that has no freewheel, meaning it cannot coast. The pedals are always in motion when the bicycle is moving.

I ride year round and commute to work daily. My daily commute is 22 miles round trip not including any stops or detours made on the way home. There is no way I would be able to ride 120+ miles per week without a properly fitted bicycle. Your "junk" should not hurt at all. This says to me that your saddle height to stem/bar height is most likely out of sync. Which means you're on an ill fitted bicycle. A reasonable compromise between aerodynamics and comfort is your saddle and stem should be about level to one another.

But now we're going in a whole different direction.

 

[bikehikeskifish]

I too am an avid cyclist and primarily ride a fixed gear bicycle although I do have a touring bicycle as well. For those that don't know a fixed-gear bicycle (or fixed wheel bicycle) is a bicycle that has no freewheel, meaning it cannot coast. The pedals are always in motion when the bicycle is moving.

...

But now we're going in a whole different direction.

I'll tie it back to the original thread by saying that you get an eccentric component when you ride a fixie. Yes, I have one too.

Tim

 

[kaseri]

Big fun !

 

[mookie]

Big fun !

SURE IS!
but i dont ride in the winter, people in cars scare me enough during the daylight hours of spring/summer and fall.

 

[bikehikeskifish]

SURE IS!
but i dont ride in the winter, people in cars scare me enough during the daylight hours of spring/summer and fall.

Oddly enough, I get WAY more respect from cars at night while all lit up.

Tim

 

[mookie]

Oddly enough, I get WAY more respect from cars at night while all lit up.

Tim

biking drunk tim?

 

[bikehikeskifish]

biking drunk tim?

We could start a poll

Tim