Gray Jays...to feed or not to feed?

[BorealChickadee]

Cornell's Laboratory of Ornithology has found that even backyard birds obtain only 20% of their total food intake from feeders.

If you're feeling guilty about the nutritional content of what you're offering the jays then carry black oil sunflower seeds or suet. Those hand fed black capped chickadees will appreciate the b.o. sunflower seeds also. I've never carried suet but I have carried the sunflower seeds.

 

[the starchild]

To answer Starchilds question understanding the bird's natural history will clarify.The gray jay evolved as a scavenger. They will trail large preditors through thier habitat waiting for a kill, feces or anything. they also eat insects, eggs and fledlings from other birds. This trailing behavior was transferred to hikers, trappers and loggers.

thank for the response, and not to argue just to argue, but to ask to find the difference; i must ask!?!?!? ( and i ask this of everyone, not just you since i used your quote )

aren't raccoons scavengers too? and yet we all know not to feed them. or are they technically not scavengers (i am ignorant here).

also, what difference does it even make whether or not grey jays are scavengers?

or, more specifically, if an animal is a scavenger by evolution, why then is ok to feed it? i mean, why does that even make a difference? even if it is a scavenger by evolution, how does that make it ok to feed it? its still not natural, and with so many hikers, it must make a difference in these animals' natural eating cycle.

i find it very, very hard to believe that grey jays would be snatching food out of non-feeding peoples' hands had they never been fed before by people.


-william

ps. one last point, someone, (sorry i forget who) said the birds get so little food from the people it doesn't make a difference. but any bird (or animal for that matter) will get easy food before working hard to get food, and with more food available from hikers, more birds will be born due to more food, and now you have too many birds to be supported naturally and then they will rely on the hikers...viola....we have changed them and thier diet and natural rhythm! not good!

 

[Kevin Rooney]

Kevin either misread or misinterpreted my statement. I don't equate feeding jays with feeding bears. For different reasons I don't feed deer either; they might not become habituated to the food but rather the source, thus becoming easy prey during hunting season. But I do feed jays occasionally and I don't believe anyone has come up with a free range peanut butter fed jay recipe yet.

Opps, sounds like I misunderstood you, Stan. I thought you were implying that bears and grey jays had similar habituation tendencies.

 

[Puck]

thank for the response, and not to argue just to argue, but to ask to find the difference; i must ask!?!?!? ( and i ask this of everyone, not just you since i used your quote )

aren't raccoons scavengers too? and yet we all know not to feed them. or are they technically not scavengers (i am ignorant here).

also, what difference does it even make whether or not grey jays are scavengers? !

Saying that they are scavengers alone is not a justification for feeding them. It is hard or impossible to compare these birds with mamals. They cover a 250 acre territory. the density is small. They are constantly gathering food, most of what they take gets cached. Handouts from hikers is a small part of thier diet. and the availability of this food source does not appear to have an affect on thier population. Whereas an oppossum in an urban setting could live on garbage.The human impact is huge on these and other mamals.

i find it very, very hard to believe that grey jays would be snatching food out of non-feeding peoples' hands had they never been fed before by people.!

Absolutly. In areas with no loging or hikers these birds do not feed out of hands nor attack hikers not willing to share.

ps. one last point, someone, (sorry i forget who) said the birds get so little food from the people it doesn't make a difference. but any bird (or animal for that matter) will get easy food before working hard to get food, and with more food available from hikers, more birds will be born due to more food, and now you have too many birds to be supported naturally and then they will rely on the hikers...viola....we have changed them and thier diet and natural rhythm! not good!

That is not the case with the grey jay making them the exception and not the rule. the population is not increased. They work hard for thier food even if it is a handout.

 

[Kevin Rooney]

One more thing - lest anyone think grey jays are these cute little birds who are all sweetness & light: actually, they're rather ruthless from birth. The strongest chick forces the weaker ones from the nest, so the biggest, baddest, most ruthless chick is left. If you watch closely, you can often see the family group - Mom, Dad and Youngster. Mom and Dad will feed from your hand regularly, but Youngster tends to hold back and observe the parent's technique. So, I don't have any illusions that my feeding these little beggars is in any way detrimental to them. They're intelligent, bold, resourceful and opportunistic. They sure as hell don't need my help to survive. They're also bullies, and some will buzz you if you stop feeding them before they've had enough.

 

[Puck]

One more thing - lest anyone think grey jays are these cute little birds who are all sweetness & light: actually, they're rather ruthless from birth. The strongest chick forces the weaker ones from the nest, so the biggest, baddest, most ruthless chick is left. If you watch closely, you can often see the family group - Mom, Dad and Youngster. Mom and Dad will feed from your hand regularly, but Youngster tends to hold back and observe the parent's technique. So, I don't have any illusions that my feeding these little beggars is in any way detrimental to them. They're intelligent, bold, resourceful and opportunistic. They sure as hell don't need my help to survive. They're also bullies, and some will buzz you if you stop feeding them before they've had enough.

Kevin
You brought up a great point. so If you are hiking in the summer months and you see three grey jays...all is well in the world. If you only see two, the offspring has died.... if March has a lot of rain early in the month the nesting success is zero.

 

[DougPaul]

aren't raccoons scavengers too? and yet we all know not to feed them. or are they technically not scavengers (i am ignorant here).

Bears happily scavenge too. And raid bird feeders....

Arguing that it is ok or not ok to feed an animal because it is a scavenger seems a little weak to me. Effects on the individual animal, its population and the other members of the ecosystem seem like better criteria.

But I suspect that ultimately many (most?) decide based upon the effect on the human offering the food--bears become nuisances, bad; birds and chipmunks (cute), good.

Doug

 

[dr_wu002]

Travel Light!

To answer Starchilds question understanding the bird's natural history will clarify.The gray jay evolved as a scavenger. They will trail large preditors through thier habitat waiting for a kill, feces or anything. they also eat insects, eggs and fledlings from other birds. This trailing behavior was transferred to hikers, trappers and loggers.

Well, I'll never have to pack out my poo after reading this! Thanks!

-Dr. Wu

 

[grouseking]

To be honest, I was trying to light a little fuse here....to see what people really think, and what they know. I love what I've been reading in this and I've been learning a lot, as usual.

When I first heard of these birds, I thought it was a fantastic idea to go hiking, seek them out and try to feed them. Then when I found them the first time at Ethan Pond, I practically had to hide my cheese-its. Last time I saw them was on a hike last September on Mt Tom. There must have been 10-15 overly aggressive birds up there dive bombing my head for food. It was ridiculous. So finally, i said FINE, HAVE SOME FOOD! I stuck out my hand and let one land. But of course they all kept their distance and not one landed to take the crumbs. That upset me a little and then I continued eating. Not 30 seconds later, another Jay dive bombed me and attempted to take some more food. I guess I was just annoyed, but at the same time I didn't think they were supposed to be that aggressive.

And that made me wonder if all the food we are giving these jays is negatively affecting them, because these guys knew what they wanted, and they came in numbers!!

Keep the comments/thoughts coming. I learn so much from this site.


grouseking

 

[sierra]

I feed the Jays, both in the Whites and in the Rockies of Colorado as well. It does not harm them in any way and I enjoy it even after all these years. I gave it some thought and here my take on my own and maybe others motivation on this issue. We are civilized and to have a wild animal in your hand is quite frankly both unussual and amusing, I will continue to feed them, if you decide not to, godspeed to you, but could you move on so me and my birds can get back to our lunch now.

 

[DougPaul]

And that made me wonder if all the food we are giving these jays is negatively affecting them, because these guys knew what they wanted, and they came in numbers!!

I think it is obvious what the behavioral effects are--turns normal birds into aggressive pests.

BTW, if you search, you will see that this topic has been beaten to death before. And probably will be again multiple times in the future...

Doug

 

[Waumbek]

I just submitted an article to Natural New England magazine that covers this very question.

Puck, thanks for all your input, which has raised the level of discussion way above I-wanna-feed-em vs. you-shudn-feed-em. Good luck with the article submission. I'm sure it will see print. Please post or PM when it does. I'd like to read it and learn more.

 

[grouseking]

BTW, if you search, you will see that this topic has been beaten to death before. And probably will be again multiple times in the future...

Doug

Maybe we have beaten a dead horse, but it has been a good thread, and I was just plain curious.

Now, to turn the stage a little, I found an interesting article online. It has a lot of neat info on Gray Jays and a possible explanation as to why they are dying off in some areas...global warming. Here is an excerpt.

"The Algonquin Gray Jay study's working hypothesis is that climate warming may be responsible for the decline. We know that Gray Jays depend on stored food for their winter survival and that they also use this food, at least to some extent, to feed nestlings. As global temperatures rise, we can expect that insects, berries, pieces of meat or mushrooms stored by Gray Jays will spoil more rapidly. This will occur even in the winter and may be especially serious when repeated freeze-thaw events accelerate the degradation of perishable food. The cumulative effect of such warming may be that early-nesting Gray Jays have less stored food to feed their nestlings than in the past and fewer young jays are produced as a result. "

Now that is an interesting hypothesis...not that I'm surprised, since everything is being blamed on global warming (if it exsists ). But still its interesting enough to look at. Here is the link... Gray Jays .

grouseking

 

[Raymond]

How about the ethics of feeding feral cats in suburbia?

I've only encountered one gray jay that I can recall — at the top of Carrigain. And it didn't even come all that close.

 

[Puck]

"The Algonquin Gray Jay study's working hypothesis is that climate warming may be responsible for the decline. We know that Gray Jays depend on stored food for their winter survival and that they also use this food, at least to some extent, to feed nestlings. As global temperatures rise, we can expect that insects, berries, pieces of meat or mushrooms stored by Gray Jays will spoil more rapidly. This will occur even in the winter and may be especially serious when repeated freeze-thaw events accelerate the degradation of perishable food. The cumulative effect of such warming may be that early-nesting Gray Jays have less stored food to feed their nestlings than in the past and fewer young jays are produced as a result. "

grouseking

The jays take the food into thier crop where it is coated with a sticky mucus that will harden like varnish. so the food is actually "canned" for future use. Climate change was explained to me by an ornithologist as affecting the birds to inuslate themselves against the elements. It is easier for the birds to stay woarm in the snow then the freezing rain.

 

[grouseking]

The jays take the food into thier crop where it is coated with a sticky mucus that will harden like varnish. so the food is actually "canned" for future use. Climate change was explained to me by an ornithologist as affecting the birds to inuslate themselves against the elements. It is easier for the birds to stay woarm in the snow then the freezing rain.

COOL!

grouseking

 

[Whiteman]

Guilty

I've fed the jays, and never really felt too bad about it. We did get some looks one time from some fellow who thought we were morons because we were dressed lightly (t-shirts in fact, as we came out onto the ridge on Pierce) despite the weather (kind of crispy, rime ice everywhere, a bit of a breeze), and then we fed the birds! (BTW, there were multiple layers of non-cotton clothing in the packs, and we never got cold.)

And I've fed lots of other birds at the bird feeder, and chickadees from the hand. When my kids were very little we took them to an Audubon center where the chickadees were extremely friendly, and both kids had birds land on their hands. They were fascinated and thrilled by the experience. I think it gave them a nice connection with nature, one that has lasted.

Now if I could just make friends with a raven. That is what I would really like to do, but I suspect there is some federal law saying that's a no-no.

 

[bill bowden]

Feeding Birds

Once shared a ham and cheese sandwich with a raven (Mount Rainier);felt no particular guilt. I had thought the decline in gray jays was more likely related to spread of broadleaf forests and decline in boreal forests, their normal habitat.

Moving outside WMNF to the "North of the Notches" section in New Hampshire reveals large areas of cut over second growth forest where broadleaf trees have re-grown in place of the previous spruce-fir community.

Anecdotally, spruce grouse, also once very common in the Whites appear to be becoming less and less common. They were/are also very "tame" birds and show no fear in approaching people. Their reputed defence mechanism was to taste like turpentine fromtheir diet of spruce buds.

 

[Bob]

They taste just like chicken...

 

[expat]

Where does it stop?

So if we are to treat all animals the same, where does it stop? What about the dung beetles and bacteria that feed on the matter in the composting toilets at backcountry tentsites?

Humans are part of nature, but we hope that our sentience makes us benign there. To me, feeding Grey Jays is benign. Feeding racoons, bears and other animals may not be. Given that, we each need to make the decisions we're comfortable with based on the facts we have.