New Hampshire 200 Highest and New Hampshire 300 Highest Lists

[trailbagger]

I hate bushwhacking and won't ever finish the NEHH. I attempted Scar Ridge and Vose Spur and found both so miserable I aborted both hikes. Just wanted to share that with the group. However, I *am* enjoying this thread.

 

[Motabobo]

I heard that only the Google group medium is dead and that the members are still performing a secret handshake.

 

[NewHampshire]

What I don’t understand is the ill feeling towards the list keepers who spent a lot of time and effort developing their own lists and are wary of passing them out to everyone who asks for them. There is no law that says all lists shall be shared. Especially if the public posting of said lists is the end result. There is also no law that says someone without the list can’t develop their own lists by studying the topo’s as it was done in the old days, but then again, everyone likes a shortcut.

Some very great points, John, and to illustrate the above point a short example.

Keith D'Alessasndro is a friend. I won't hide the fact, and consider him well worth knowing. I like to think he holds me in a fair regard as well. Now, you would think that I asked for the NH300 list and received it immediately. This was not the case. The first time I asked Keith for it he said he was sorry, but he couldn't do it, at least not at that time. I did not take it personal. I figured he had his reasons. I wasn't real hard up for the list simply because at that point I was still knee deep in the NH3K's. His saying no was in no way a problem for me, and honestly it is not like the information is secret...if I wanted a 300 list that badly I was free to browse maps on my own and come up with one. It took over a year before I asked again and he decided to give me a copy with the express condition I not share it. Fair enough. His list, his rules. And even then, the copy received was not perfect. In the end some work still had to be done to bring it to a level of accuracy to which my friend Greg and I were happy to accept. But as I stated once before in this thread, I admit it may not be perfect.

To continue to wax philosophical as John has, I think I see the biggest problem in all this me-vs.-them fighting. It is a general lack of communication and understanding. Look, let's face it, people are always going to hate other people, and those people will instill their hate into their friends and vice-versa. Is it fair? Of course not, but it is only human nature, and trying to fight human nature is always a losing battle. A friend of mine recently described the situation best, so much so I knew he was dead right. What we have here is a classic example of the Hatfield and McCoy's syndrome. Two sides fighting on principle even though no one can remember quite all the details of what started it all. I think a lot has suffered through all of this fighting, and it saddens me because I see many people have lost sight of the fact that this is supposed to be a "fun" pastime.

For the most part I have tried to keep on the positive side of it all. As many who read jar entries of mine may note, I am a profane person (alas, a fault I admit there is no swear jar big enough to cure me , and Al Bernier is forever poking fun at me for it ), but I believe I have tried to not make it personal. Alas my memory does suck, and there may have been some things said at some point by me...and if so then whoever said entry was about I give my sincere apology to him/her/they/them, whatever the case may be. I know someone is taking something personal as I have found 2 instances of my entries being tampered with, one was transported from Teapot to one of the GoSavages. Another on Dartmouth was scribbled out. It is pretty easy to put two and two together to know who was responsible for one simply by looking at sign-ins to that almost never visited peak. And yet here is the thing...it does not bother me. Really, and I know it may shock some, but it does not. I don't blame the person/s, and surely don't take it personal anymore. But I hope they could understand that this is an example of how bad things have gotten amongst both "sides". I once told someone on another forum, in connection with something totally not connected to this issue, but which applies rather here well. "Take the high road every time, and in the end you come out looking better than if you sling mud."

Look, I don't expect everyone to drop all grievances and hatred and suddenly start being best friends. But maybe in my foolishly optimistic world I can hope everyone could at least starting looking each other in the eye and being a bit civil. I know that when dealing with people on both sides of this issue I have mostly found people to be open and friendly when dealing one on one. For all Roy's gruffness the guy is top notch. He is about as close to anyone on these forums you will find that has pretty much "been there and done that". He is pretty ready to lend a hand when asked. Likewise so have some of the other greats...the Carl Cressys, Keith D'Alessandros, Steve Smiths of the hiking world. And, in absolute fairness Even Ed, Bryan and Eric Rathbun. I recently filled out the application and sent it in to Bryan, and if I am going to be honest I half expected to be ignored because of my friend associations. And yet, I was not ignored, and all three guys responded in a timely and most polite manner. And this...this right here is why I think maybe there is still a glimmer of hope that both sides might be able to connect with each other on, not so much a friendlier note....but perhaps at least a less aggressive one. Again, idealistic perhaps, but maybe not. Frankly I shifted my life priorities a couple years ago and am now to the point where I can't work up enough emotional involvement in what, in the greater scope of the world, is really just minor things. Canisters, log entries, who hates who, yellow spray paint on summits...when I see so much more death and destruction in the world it is tough to get worked up over a few bits of paper, plastic, particles of paint or who said what about who. I guess I can sum it all up in one word....Peace.

And one last point, to further what Roy and John said about NEBW. Indeed it was archived and no longer active. The owner shut it down because, and this may surprise those who lament it so, it wasn't being used much. The last couple years it maybe saw one post a month or two. And while it may be hard to believe, but the content was not VFTT like (meaning talking about anything or everything). The best I can liken it to is an email version of a trail condition or trip report site. In fact, the owner, when I was given access, expressly pointed out that this wasn't to be used as a general forum. Indeed, 75% of the membership were guys who generally stay about petty group politics and were there mostly for their knowledge . Were things said here and there not strictly about hiking/whacking? Sure, but I can promise you it really wasn't any worse than you would find publicly here on VFTT.

Now that I am done channeling the spirit of Ghandi I have to go and teach Motabobo the new secret handshake. It is pretty much the same as the old one, but laced with a few French expletives.

Brian

P.S. And if you don't want to bother reading all my tripe above then just take away this one moral of the story....Peace my friends.

 

[rocket21]

I think this thread illustrates why it is so great that Ed, Bryan, and Eric made the lists available - so that folks can view the lists and hike the peaks without having to get involved in any of the drama.

By the way, I can't speak toward what's happening in some canisters (or why some are choosing to rip down some PVC canisters but leave other PVC canisters, and write critical messages about said PVC canisters in other canisters), but I was the one who scribbled out the entry on Dartmouth. The contents of the message I scribbled out were obscene enough that I wouldn't be able to post them here without getting in trouble with the moderators. Perhaps these obscenities and personal attacks are part of the reason canisters have been disappearing.

 

[Motabobo]

I think this thread illustrates why it is so great that Ed, Bryan, and Eric made the lists available - so that folks can view the lists and hike the peaks without having to get involved in any of the drama.

Let's see what happens to these peaks with all this new awereness and then you heroes tell me if the drama is over.

 

[rocket21]

In the interest of transparency…

In fact, Ed himself received a copy of an updated NH300 list last year so he’s had the list for a while. Ed has also passed this same list along to many of his web site insiders, and also several members of VFTT. Bryan himself received a copy of an older list.

This is a base canard. I recall when Bryan was on the verge of completing the 100 and had already started the NH 300 by simply looking at the map...such as, on a few bushwhacks I joined him for, he'd suggest there was a reasonable col to an adjacent peak and that we might as well check it out whilst there. Sometime around this time, I recall he politely started inquiring about the 300 (with no intention of posting the list online) and was refused by multiple individuals. Some were apologetic (being instructed that they could not send it), others were patronizing to say the least (questioning his motives for hiking).

Not letting the secret handshake society deter him from exploring a new-to-him set of peaks, Bryan took to researching the remaining peaks on his own, spending much of the winter scouring the USGS 7.5 minute topos and various online data sources. We discussed the research he was doing, and how, since it's public, non-copyright-applicable data, that there doesn't need to be a secret handshake or series of veiled threats needed to obtain it.

Was Bryan the first one to compile this list? Obviously not. Others have claimed to invent it, but obviously they weren't the first either. Did he simply regurgitate an NH 300 list sent to him, as has been claimed here? No, and the alleged variations between the list he compiled and the ones Roy cites seem to validate that. My understanding is that Ed respected the efforts Bryan went through and appreciated his desire to share his work, so that's how the site and patches came to be.

Let's see what happens to these peaks with all this new awereness and then you heroes tell me if the drama is over.

Classy.

 

[Grey J]

Can y'all spell internecine warfare?

 

[Tim Seaver]

I'll add this bizarre thread to another one of the "Hundred And One Reasons I Don't Do Lists".

Crikey.

 

[peakbagger]

Without making any insults, to the participants I expect the following my in some way apply

"I learned long ago, never to wrestle with a pig. You get dirty, and besides, the pig likes it."

George Bernard Shaw

 

[RoySwkr]

The original developer of the list back in the ‘90’s spent a lot of time studying topo’s coming up with his list.

I would say that anyone who make their own list from maps rather than copying lists is an "original developer", there may be a dozen or more for the NH300. As to the oldest NH300 list, Gene Daniell made a list of every peak in NH in the early 1970s so even if you want to claim making the first NH1000 list you are 40 years too late What JRP can claim is to be the first to actually hike his list.

All the lists vary by a handful or less of peaks.

I would say Bryan's list varies by over 10 peaks from some others with stringent criteria, perhaps that is a "handful" out of 300

I’m sure the 48x12 version of the NH300 list will be reviewed thoroughly, compared to the current existing versions, and republished with a more accurate list based upon the most current versions.

I'm less sure of that which I why I started this ruckus, Ed had promised only to "footnote" changes. If he wants a correct list, why not publish a better list to begin with?

As far as I’m concerned, this whole NH200-NH300 list issue is much ado about nothing with the exception of the posting the list on the Internet when being asked not too.

I have never objected to posting a correct list, only to posting one riddled with errors when more correct ones were available. I helped a guy make a list of all peaks in NH with 300' cols which he sold to Google, they apparently never published it directly as they're not into peak lists

 

[TJsName]

This has been an interesting thread to watch.

I'm not sure the lack of an accurate list is really the main thing preventing most hikers I know from tackling the task. Extensive bushwhacking has limited appeal to many/most hikers I know, which might not be representative. It seems to be a much more personal/intimate quest for those who undertake it on a regular basis.

 

[Tom Rankin]

Many hikers seem averse to bushwhacking. Witness the endless discussions about Owl's Head.

But once people learn that a herd path has developed on Mt. What-cha-ma-call-it, off they go!

Maybe that is where some of the reticence to share lists comes from.

 

[NorthShore]

Bushwhacking is much more fun without a herdpath. Otherwise it isn't bushwhacking; it is trail hiking on a crappy trail. But I shouldn't be in this thread. 300 deep lists are too rich for my blood.

 

[Red Oak]

I have question in which this seems to be the perfect place to ask. What is the most common list people use for the nh100? I have for six years been working on one which has for example #4clay #5 boot spur #12 slide peak #21 guyot #23 north carter #61 thru 100 has some obscure ones like #68 davis and #72 terrace. It might be related to some dude name Mark Malnati? I really am wondering who decides what list for the nh100 gets you a patch? I would love to get that patch someday.
Thanks for posting the list Bryan!! Hard to believe anyone would keep a silly list from another person. Why compile a list only to horde it. Cracks me up!

 

[TEO]

I have question in which this seems to be the perfect place to ask. What is the most common list people use for the nh100? I have for six years been working on one which has for example #4clay #5 boot spur #12 slide peak #21 guyot #23 north carter #61 thru 100 has some obscure ones like #68 davis and #72 terrace. It might be related to some dude name Mark Malnati? I really am wondering who decides what list for the nh100 gets you a patch? I would love to get that patch someday.
Thanks for posting the list Bryan!! Hard to believe anyone would keep a silly list from another person. Why compile a list only to horde it. Cracks me up!

That sounds more like the Trailwrights list than the NHHH.

 

[alexmtn]

Many hikers seem averse to bushwhacking. Witness the endless discussions about Owl's Head.
But once people learn that a herd path has developed on Mt. What-cha-ma-call-it, off they go!
Maybe that is where some of the reticence to share lists comes from.

Hmmm. I think we'd all agree that with thousands of NH48-seekers tramping through, the above certainly applies to Owls Head, though I remain amazed by how the Black Pond bushwhack still to this day is not a rutted-in cakewalk. But, really -- when we get to '200, '300, '1000 lists, just exactly how many hikers are we worried there's ever going to be? Enough to create a herd path?? Seriously???

Sadly, as much as we might wish to think/hope that it's something more noble, my experiences tell me that a major driver of the reticence really is a strong feeling of privileged exclusivity. One winter, I took a large group on an instructional map/compass bushwhack up West Scar. Over the course of two days, we broke out both summits through 4+ feet of snow, sometimes tunneling under 12' drifts. Wanting to offer the opportunity, I made wide mention of the fact that the broken-out route was now there for the taking. Despite the fact that it was winter, deep snow, with consequently near-zero herd path creation risk, "insiders" were not pleased. "I did this-and-this-and-this in order to get that peak, so why shouldn't THEY have to?" was pretty much the refrain.

IMO, that point of view is both specious and unfortunate. It's specious, as any of us list-obsessed peak baggers know, because all of us have had trips that were really challenging and arduous (as that Scar trip was for me), and others that were "gimme's", either because the snow conditions were perfect, or because we were hiking with a veteran, or because we stumbled on a herd path, etc. So in that instance following my announcement, Scar was a gimme for the few folks that managed to hustle over there in time before the next dump. Just like all of us, those folks will also have their share of hard trips -- perhaps some on peaks that were "gimmes" for others. In short, every list finisher can point to his/her easy days and tough days.

An exclusive attitude on the part of someone who could otherwise be constructive and helpful is unfortunate, because if we're truly serious about protecting our beloved mountains/woods, we should be doing everything we can to INTEREST more people, rather than make the act of connecting harder for them. The more folks who are IN with us, the greater the size and effectiveness of a political constituency that can fight to protect these spaces from development of all sorts, way above and beyond whether a herd path does/doesn't develop somewhere. Take Northern Pass, for example - how's that for a herd path? One of the major reasons I lead trips is the reward that's to be had when a hiker says "I get it. This is fantastic. Count me in -- I'm part of it now!" Beyond the political benefits, new, like-minded friendships are a wonderful thing.

Alex

 

[NewHampshire]

I but I was the one who scribbled out the entry on Dartmouth. The contents of the message I scribbled out were obscene enough that I wouldn't be able to post them here without getting in trouble with the moderators.

Yes, I surmised as much. But I stand by what I wrote above that it does not bother me. I don't blame you. Won't judge you on the act. S'all good. Though I do admire your dedication I would venture that the single F word written in that entry on a piece of paper to be seen by perhaps 2 or 3 people a year is not the doom to world sensibilities you fear it may be, especially considering 5 minutes of HBO or Cinemax programming is considerably much worse. But by all means if you wish scribble them all out if it brings you happiness. I hate to sound like a broken record, but I don't mind. They are but tiny pieces of paper I probably shan't see ever again anyway (well, except for the Teapot entry transported to GoSavage...which I actually laughed about. It was like seeing an old friend you never expected and brought back fond memories). I am of course kidding.

As I said, one of my (many) faults is a propensity to the, as Spock likes to call them, "colorful metaphors." I am the Baron of Bad Language, the Captain of Crude words, Senator of Salty sayings. I have been known to teach a ship full of Navy sailors, and whole platoons of rowdy Marines, the finer points of lascivious exclamations. If it makes you feel better I'll drop a quarter in the swear jar...a dare say by the time all is said and done I shall be able to afford lunch for a small African nation (or two ).

But of course, all joking aside, death threats are the one line that even I will not cross for any reason.

Brian

 

[rocket21]

I have question in which this seems to be the perfect place to ask. What is the most common list people use for the nh100? I have for six years been working on one which has for example #4clay #5 boot spur #12 slide peak #21 guyot #23 north carter #61 thru 100 has some obscure ones like #68 davis and #72 terrace. It might be related to some dude name Mark Malnati? I really am wondering who decides what list for the nh100 gets you a patch?

I don't know what the status is of it now, but it sounds like it could be the YMCA list? If I recall, there was a 100 peak YMCA Alpine list on the old Rocks on Top peakbagging checklist section years ago.

I would venture that the single F word written in that entry on a piece of paper to be seen by perhaps 2 or 3 people a year is not the doom to world sensibilities you fear it may be, especially considering 5 minutes of HBO or Cinemax programming is considerably much worse.

The entry I scribbled out wasn't just a simple F-bomb. The person I hiked that peak with, who was somewhat new to the whole canister scene, was shocked by what they read and came away from that hike with a much different view of some of the modern bushwhacking community. A wise man I know refers to this recent trend as 'bathroom notes.'

 

[NewHampshire]

The entry I scribbled out wasn't just a simple F-bomb. The person I hiked that peak with, who was somewhat new to the whole canister scene, was shocked by what they read and came away from that hike with a much different view of some of the modern bushwhacking community. A wise man I know refers to this recent trend as 'bathroom notes.'

Well, I happen to have a picture of the offending entry courtesy of my friend Greg. In it's totality it says:

"The things I do for *the f word* named Greg. Sheesh all these miles for something I had already! Oh well, filling in my 3K grid (smiley face)"

The Greg in question, is as I say, my friend. He was there when I wrote it. He read it. I dare say he gave a merry chuckle too.

Like I said, sorry this was so grievous an entry, but I can't say this particular one was all that bad (not to mention that no one is forced to read it). I guess it's all a matter of opinion. Of course I digress. This really is an unfortunate distraction to the main points I have been trying to work with....

...Frankly I don't get it. I am making a serious effort here to try and throw some cold water on what has clearly developed over the years into a pretty hot and bitter situation between two sides. I have seen you face to face maybe what, a couple times over the many years. Can't remember those encounters being anything more than cordial and polite. I hardly know you, so thus no reason to seriously dislike you. I am not exactly sure what more you expect from me to believe I am trying to be anything but sincere. I seriously don't expect everyone to start being the greatest of friends, but I don't see why we all can't at least try to find common ground before things REALLY get out of hand. I have had more than one person tell me already I am crazy for thinking I could change this situation in any way through reasoned conversations. But I figured at least someone has to try.

So for whatever it is worth, there it is. I have tried, and for that at least my conscious is now clear. I'm sorry if it was all for naught, but I guess at this point now there is nothing more for me to add. So all I can do is simply close with my well wishes, and a hearty "peace my friend."

Brian

 

[rocket21]

Well, I happen to have a picture of the offending entry courtesy of my friend Greg. In it's totality it says:

I took a photo of it as well and that's not quite what it says. Those who have had folks Down's Syndrome in their lives would not have appreciated the variation of the F word used. Unfortunately it's just a sample of the canister filth and backchannel communication (unfortunately, just like high school, it gets around) that has given some of the bushwhacking community a bad name in recent years. Fortunately there are quite a few people out there who are removing the bathroom note entries. Interestingly, others have taken to removing entire canisters because they weren't placed by their clique.

Back to the discussion of exclusivity of lists and fear of overuse of the peaks...considering most of these peaks are on public land, I don't understand why some who have already hiked the peaks think their footsteps (for sake of discussion, we'll say they were the 24th person to go there) were somehow kosher and of no impact, yet if more people come in the future, person 124's footsteps are somehow bad.