Trouble on the Ridge (again).

[sierra]

I know someone who was staying at Greenleaf hut the other day. Late in the day, a woman comes into the hut, bloody, holding a bloody baby. Apparently, she fell, a few times. She then mentioned that her husband, 2 young children and their dog, were still up on the ridge, hot, without any gear and in rough shape. My friend's friend took the baby, and some people went up and got the rest of the family back down to the hut. They were in no shape to leave, so they found them spots for the night. They were told to be on their way first thing in the morning. You want to know how to prevent this from happening? you cannot, it's that simple. It's like the snow coming in the winter, you might not like it, you might wish it isn't so, but it's coming. Really, all you can do is prepare to deal with it.

 

[skiguy]

They were told to be on their way first thing in the morning.

Sounds like that warm fuzzy feeling The AMC consistently exudes.

 

[sierra]

Sounds like that warm fuzzy feeling The AMC consistently exudes.

Not being paying customers, get lost folks, lol.

 

[Dr. Dasypodidae]

Would be nice to know who “the people” were that went up on the Ridge to bring down the rest of the family and their dog to Flea hut (Greenleaf) and who the “they” are that found the seemingly negligent family spots in the hut for the night? Perhaps the hut croo?

When I worked on the croo at Flea hut many years ago, we carried out several rescues and recoveries on the Ridge before there were volunteer SAR teams available in the Whites, including one dead and one barely alive person that got struck by lightning while camping in the summit corral one night after we implored them not to camp there. More recently my SAR team has litter-carried many injured hikers down the Bridal Path from Flea hut after the croo has already done a lot of work to get hikers down to the hut and stabilized their injuries.

Last summer NH F&G asked croo from Ghoul hut (Galehead) to make a 5+ mile, one-way, night hike across the Garfield Ridge Trail to guide some hikers who were stuck without lights between Garfield and Lafayette down the Garfield Trail to the parking lot before returning to Ghoul just in time to serve breakfast (about 18 miles total hiking at night). The AMC caretaker at the Garfield lean-to/campsite also took part, but I still do not understand why croo from Ghoul hut was also requested.

Working on an AMC hut croo is already a 24-7 job for 11+ days on, 2+ days off, even without the added SAR efforts. During August 2017, I worked three days as “fill-in” croo at Zool hut (Zealand) to bridge the summer/fall croo transition and was completely spent physically after the effort, and we did not even need to pack any loads into the hut.

In sum, I find the continuous bashing of AMC hut croos on these threads by Sierra, SkiGuy, and others deplorable.

 

[skiguy]

Would be nice to know who “the people” were that went up on the Ridge to bring down the rest of the family and their dog to Flea hut (Greenleaf) and who the “they” are that found the seemingly negligent family spots in the hut for the night? Perhaps the hut croo?

When I worked on the croo at Flea hut many years ago, we carried out several rescues and recoveries on the Ridge before there were volunteer SAR teams available in the Whites, including one dead and one barely alive person that got struck by lightning while camping in the summit corral one night after we implored them not to camp there. More recently my SAR team has litter-carried many injured hikers down the Bridal Path from Flea hut after the croo has already done a lot of work to get hikers down to the hut and stabilized their injuries.

Last summer NH F&G asked croo from Ghoul hut (Galehead) to make a 5+ mile, one-way, night hike across the Garfield Ridge Trail to guide some hikers who were stuck without lights between Garfield and Lafayette down the Garfield Trail to the parking lot before returning to Ghoul just in time to serve breakfast (about 18 miles total hiking at night). The AMC caretaker at the Garfield lean-to/campsite also took part, but I still do not understand why croo from Ghoul hut was also requested.

Working on an AMC hut croo is already a 24-7 job for 11+ days on, 2+ days off, even without the added SAR efforts. During August 2017, I worked three days as “fill-in” croo at Zool hut (Zealand) to bridge the summer/fall croo transition and was completely spent physically after the effort, and we did not even need to pack any loads into the hut.

In sum, I find the continuous bashing of AMC hut croos on these threads by Sierra, SkiGuy, and others deplorable.

It’s skiguy with a lower case “s”. Without a doubt it sounds as if you and others have done some notable deeds via The AMC and I commend you on those efforts. Although the AMC has and still exudes a higher than thou mentality not always but much of the time. Which I have experienced multiple times to this day and over my almost 60 year tenure hiking in The Whites. Yes this incident lacks detail in the OP’s account and maybe that will come out. But it reeks of attitude by someone. I hope I am wrong on that point. I think it is safe to say that the family involved went through a difficult if not traumatic experience. Although even with the help given and by whom ever it was, it’s probably safe to say that The Croo were the ones to drop the gauntlet about having to be on your way first thing in the morning. That is just insensitive. Again I have experienced poor attitude by The AMC over the course of decades and to present time. Whether that has anything to do with this incident or not is to be determined. The saddest part of The AMC’s elitist mentality is it has been there for years and has not changed. It’s a training issue and poor follow up on The AMCs management. That is IMO what is deplorable. It’s not bashing it’s an objective observation. On another note much of The AMC’s operation is on Public Lands and much of the time get exceptions to laws and guidelines to those lands in order to perform their operations. Again they could clean up their overall attitude especially to the people whom pay for the existence of those public lands in the first place.

 

[peakbagger]

My observation over the years is that the AMC and RMC tend to be called upon as first responders and their crews in the field have lived up well beyond what is expected to them. I may bash upper management decisions on occasion but generally the boots on the ground AMC folks in the backcountry seem to be a major asset to the whites backcountry. The Obs also used to be very active in assisting with hikers in trouble when the staff was far more skilled. Given the revolving door it has become and the general lack of S&R skills by the staff, they now just refer issues to the full time state park staff at the summit (a relatively new thing) under the premise that they are not trained to support this type of assistance.

With respect to the commentary about being gone in the AM, that is being flavored by at least two folks recounting of the story including one person who has already stated his dislike for the AMC so expect the report may have some bias. My guess is a family group of Idiots or at least a group led by an "idiot" watched too many NH tourism commercials and got way in over their head on a hike. Temps were very hot and probably they lacked adequate water and electrolytes and at least the leader was not thinking clearly. The hut caretakers on a busy weekend at the hut went and assisted the group back to the hut but were not very thrilled about having to deal with people way in over their heads. I really do not know what else the hut caretakers at the hut should have said to the family?. They had to get down from the hut somehow and did not have reservations, so they needed to clear out and make room for those who did have reservations.

It has been reported many times over the years about folks ending up at the huts without reservations that they expect the hut crew to deal with their lack of planning. In many cases the response by the crew is to insist the party head on down the trail and offer to sell them a flashlight if they do not have one. In some cases, the people are not happy about that and threaten to vilify the AMC usually by posting their version of the story "everywhere". They may get sympathy from the clueless but anyone with knowledge of the real world just shakes their head and ignores it or in some occasions points out how clueless the individual was. In some cases, the aggrieved parties do not like what they hear from AMC and call 911 where they are routed to F&G. F&G does the triage then makes the call on how to respond. With the limited information. it does not sound like there was a heck of a good reason to send up staff to walk the family down that evening Odds are the family had an uncomfortable night dealing with dehydration, bumps and cuts, sunburn and a crying baby. Even without AMC asking they leave, my guess is they wanted to be down the trail and back to their car as soon as the sky got light.

 

[ChrisB]

In sum, I find the continuous bashing of AMC hut croos on these threads by Sierra, SkiGuy, and others deplorable.

Par for the course here, unfortunately. Haters gotta hate.

Did Croo feed these folks? Shelter these folks? Pull their dam asses off the mountain? Probably.

But for some haters that's just not enough.

Some of us hold grudges waaaay to long in life.

 

[sierra]

Would be nice to know who “the people” were that went up on the Ridge to bring down the rest of the family and their dog to Flea hut (Greenleaf) and who the “they” are that found the seemingly negligent family spots in the hut for the night? Perhaps the hut croo?

When I worked on the croo at Flea hut many years ago, we carried out several rescues and recoveries on the Ridge before there were volunteer SAR teams available in the Whites, including one dead and one barely alive person that got struck by lightning while camping in the summit corral one night after we implored them not to camp there. More recently my SAR team has litter-carried many injured hikers down the Bridal Path from Flea hut after the croo has already done a lot of work to get hikers down to the hut and stabilized their injuries.

Last summer NH F&G asked croo from Ghoul hut (Galehead) to make a 5+ mile, one-way, night hike across the Garfield Ridge Trail to guide some hikers who were stuck without lights between Garfield and Lafayette down the Garfield Trail to the parking lot before returning to Ghoul just in time to serve breakfast (about 18 miles total hiking at night). The AMC caretaker at the Garfield lean-to/campsite also took part, but I still do not understand why croo from Ghoul hut was also requested.

Working on an AMC hut croo is already a 24-7 job for 11+ days on, 2+ days off, even without the added SAR efforts. During August 2017, I worked three days as “fill-in” croo at Zool hut (Zealand) to bridge the summer/fall croo transition and was completely spent physically after the effort, and we did not even need to pack any loads into the hut.

In sum, I find the continuous bashing of AMC hut croos on these threads by Sierra, SkiGuy, and others deplorable.

The efforts that the hut crews put in as far as SAR activities is not lost on me and I acknowledge they do an amazing job. Most of the hut crews are college kids and I have zero animosity towards any of them. I'm not really looking for a back and forth here on my dislike of the AMC, but after over 50 years spending time in the Whites, I never felt the need to align with the AMC. You worked at the huts, I get it, it was a wonderful time and you feel committed to the organization as a result. But there is nothing "deplorable" about not liking the AMC, there are many long time White Mountain hikers who feel the same way as I do. It's just my opinion, doesn't mean that much, but it's mine. Last I checked in this country, everyone is entitled to one.

 

[ChrisB]

But there is nothing "deplorable" about not liking the AMC, there are many long time White Mountain hikers who feel the same way as I do. It's just my opinion, doesn't mean that much, but it's mine. Last I checked in this country, everyone is entitled to one.

I too have had my ups and downs with the Club over 50+ years of hiking. But...

If you use the many trails they maintain, water up or take a dump at their facilities, or benefit from their conservation, land acquisition and lobbying activities, I suggest it is a bit hypocritical to bash them.

 

[Dr. Dasypodidae]

Sorry for my incorrect use of caps, skiguy (it was an autocorrect that I missed). But, you need to look up the definitions of the words “objective“ and “subjective,” skiguy. You and Sierra admit that your feelings about the AMC are opinions, which are subjective, not objective. Your and Sierra’s first three posts are clearly bashing the AMC hut croos, specifically the croo at Flea hut in the initial post, rather than AMC management, which is what I find deplorable.

I think that Peakbagger’s and ChrisB’s posts are more measured and closer to being objective rather than subjective.

 

[sierra]

I too have had my ups and downs with the Club over 50+ years of hiking. But...

If you use the many trails they maintain, water up or take a dump at their facilities, or benefit from their conservation, land acquisition and lobbying activities, I suggest it is a bit hypocritical to bash them.

I have always advocated that the huts be removed, I not only do not need their facilities, I wish they were not there. I can go to the bathroom in the woods and there is plenty of water out there. People always use that hypocrisy argument, but it doesn't hold up, I have no choice that they are there.

 

[RollingRock]

Friends of mine were hiking down Falling Waters and saw the couple hiking up. It was 90 degrees down here that day...saw that all they had for water was a 12 ounce water bottle and asked if they had any more water...they replied that is all they had. Seeing the entire troupe with them, strongly recommended they turn around. Said they would be fine and continued on their way up.

 

[B the Hiker]

I know someone who was staying at Greenleaf hut the other day. Late in the day, a woman comes into the hut, bloody, holding a bloody baby. Apparently, she fell, a few times. She then mentioned that her husband, 2 young children and their dog, were still up on the ridge, hot, without any gear and in rough shape. My friend's friend took the baby, and some people went up and got the rest of the family back down to the hut. They were in no shape to leave, so they found them spots for the night. They were told to be on their way first thing in the morning. You want to know how to prevent this from happening? you cannot, it's that simple. It's like the snow coming in the winter, you might not like it, you might wish it isn't so, but it's coming. Really, all you can do is prepare to deal with it.

Let's tell this story differently:

A bunch of untrained and unprepared hikers went out where they had no business going. They were warned to turn around and ignored the advice. When they got into trouble, they had no training and no first aid kit on them.

They went to Greenleaf hut, where a busy croo had to drop everything they were doing to attend to them. The croo used their training and medical supplies to help two injured climbers, while others, who should have been working on dinner, had to leave and help the rest of the party down.

Once at the hut, the party threw themselves on the croo, who both fed them and put them up for the night free of charge.

In the morning, the croo informed the party they had to depart when everyone else did, so the croo could prepare the cabin for the next night's guests.

Rather that express the slightest hint of gratitude, the party did nothing but talk smack about their rescuers.



Brian

 

[maineguy]

Let's tell this story differently:

A bunch of untrained and unprepared hikers went out where they had no business going. They were warned to turn around and ignored the advice. When they got into trouble, they had no training and no first aid kit on them.

They went to Greenleaf hut, where a busy croo had to drop everything they were doing to attend to them. The croo used their training and medical supplies to help two injured climbers, while others, who should have been working on dinner, had to leave and help the rest of the party down.

Once at the hut, the party threw themselves on the croo, who both fed them and put them up for the night free of charge.

In the morning, the croo informed the party they had to depart when everyone else did, so the croo could prepare the cabin for the next night's guests.

Rather that express the slightest hint of gratitude, the party did nothing but talk smack about their rescuers.



Brian

Interesting story. Is this what actually happened?

 

[skiguy]

Sorry for my incorrect use of caps, skiguy (it was an autocorrect that I missed). But, you need to look up the definitions of the words “objective“ and “subjective,” skiguy. You and Sierra admit that your feelings about the AMC are opinions, which are subjective, not objective. Your and Sierra’s first three posts are clearly bashing the AMC hut croos, specifically the croo at Flea hut in the initial post, rather than AMC management, which is what I find deplorable.

I think that Peakbagger’s and ChrisB’s posts are more measured and closer to being objective rather than subjective.

I know the mantra. The AMC can do no wrong. They are the stewards and you better listen to them because they are always the ones that are correct. Call it objective, subjective, bashing, hating or even hypocritical...whatever have at it. I call it stating an opinion. For the record I have been an AMC member, I've also done volunteer trip leading in addition to trail work. Also, I have participated in SAR efforts. I have seen it from the inside and from the outside. If you want to play the role of AMC morality police you better polish up your badge because there will be a lot more coming from me. IMO your post only reinforces the superiority complex that The Appies should have gotten over decades ago. Before you get your panties up your crack again you might want to reread my post that you are bashing as I stated I hope I was wrong on the issue. Also to quote myself: "Again I have experienced poor attitude by The AMC over the course of decades and to present time. Whether that has anything to do with this incident or not is to be determined".

 

[sierra]

Let's tell this story differently:

A bunch of untrained and unprepared hikers went out where they had no business going. They were warned to turn around and ignored the advice. When they got into trouble, they had no training and no first aid kit on them.

They went to Greenleaf hut, where a busy croo had to drop everything they were doing to attend to them. The croo used their training and medical supplies to help two injured climbers, while others, who should have been working on dinner, had to leave and help the rest of the party down.

Once at the hut, the party threw themselves on the croo, who both fed them and put them up for the night free of charge.

In the morning, the croo informed the party they had to depart when everyone else did, so the croo could prepare the cabin for the next night's guests.

Rather that express the slightest hint of gratitude, the party did nothing but talk smack about their rescuers.



Brian

I'm just curious, where did you get the information that the rescued party "talked smack about the rescuers"?

 

[B the Hiker]

I'm just curious, where did you get the information that the rescued party "talked smack about the rescuers"?

Oh, so they didn't and it was you who turned the story around?

 

[Scubahhh]

Another one last night… discuss among yourselves.

NH SAR CALLOUT...

Hikers Assisted off Franconia Ridge, Franconia

Franconia – On Saturday, June 3, 2023 at approximately 9:30 pm the NH Fish and Game was notified of two hikers in distress. One hiker in the party was showing symptoms of mild hypothermia and didn’t think they could continue walking. Bryan Morse, 29, and his wife Samantha Nigro, 26, of Franklin, NH had started hiking up Falling Waters Trail at 1:00 pm. By 7:30 pm they had made the summit of Little Haystack and decided to continue onto the Liberty Springs Tent site 2 miles across Franconia Ridge. Approximately ¼ mile past the summit of Little Haystack the pair began feeling the effects of being cold and wet as it had been raining off and on all day. Eventually they became so cold they called 911 for assistance.

Conservation Officers and members of the Pemigewasset Valley Search and Rescue team responded to the Falling Waters trailhead and began the 3 mile hike to Morse and Nigro’s location. The rescue party arrived at their location at approximately 1:20 am the following morning. Morse and Nigro had been able to make a fire and were equipped with a tent and sleeping bags. Unfortunately they were unable to keep warm and dry due to their clothing, weather and lack of experience. The sleeping bags were soaked from the day’s rain. Both of them were wearing cotton which retains water, keeping your body from being dry. Rescuers provided the couple with warm, proper clothing, food and water. Once Morse and Nigro were warmed they started hiking out with the rescue party at 1:40 am. Morse, Nigro and the rescuers arrived back at the trailhead at approximately 6:00 am.

Events like these could be avoided by paying attention to weather conditions prior to departing on your outing. There are several websites such as www.mountwashington.org that can predict weather conditions in the high elevations of the White Mountains. Hikers are asked to properly prepare for those conditions. A common saying in the hiking community is “Cotton Kills”. For a list of the “10 Essentials” everyone should carry while enjoying the outdoors go to www.wildlife.state.nh.us. All people who enjoy the outdoors should consider the purchase of a Hike Safe Card. Funds generated from the Hike Safe Card go directly to funding the New Hampshire Fish and Game Department’s search and rescue efforts. Cards can be purchased at: Hiking Safety | New Hampshire Fish and Game Department (state.nh.us)

 

[sierra]

Oh, so they didn't and it was you who turned the story around?

You are the one that said they talked smack, all I said was, they were told to leave first thing in the morning, that is a fact. In your effort to defend the AMC, you have changed my story to fit your needs.

 

[B the Hiker]

You are the one that said they talked smack, all I said was, they were told to leave first thing in the morning, that is a fact. In your effort to defend the AMC, you have changed my story to fit your needs.

What I have done is taken the story you provided, and given folks the chance to see the same events in a different light. They can judge for themselves which version resonates more strongly.