Wildcat pass required for hikers?

[MichaelJ]

To answer my own question, an acquaintance got a call from Susan today. Word is there is not likely to be a resolution soon. "This has now become a national issue, and there are 155 ski areas with at least some USFS based terrain."

So because of some isolated incidents, a blanket decision/action will have to be made/resolved. Not good.

I don't have any guidelines or information on whether people should be acquiescing to Wildcat's insistence to pay for passes at this time or not.

 

[bikehikeskifish]

I received the following e-mail from Susan Mathison today:

Tim,
Thank you for your inquiry.

This issue has recently become complicated by a number of organized groups that are hiking up Wildcat's groomed surfaces and then sledding down the ski trails. This activity poses a serious safety hazard to skiers, snowboarders, etc. Others are continuing this activity at night, during periods when grooming and snowmaking pose additional hazards. Hikers using the center of the trails and climbing over staged manmade snow has also complicated the challenges of balancing access with ski area operations.

This is a complex issue and we are continuing to examine all our opportunities to meet the needs for public access, safety, and permit holder rights and responsibilities.

I have added your name to a list of interested members of the public and will contact you as soon as we have more information.

Best regards,
-Susan.

Tim

 

[David Metsky]

 

[RoySwkr]

That sign was linked to in an earlier note, the question being why the Forest Service allows them to post such rules prior to approval

 

[jgregoire]

Patrol will force you to ride down with them on a snow-cat or snowmobile, thus making the peak not count.

At the risk of sounding like an internet tough guy, I find it hard to believe that anyone on the mountain is going to "force" me down on a snow-cat or snowmobile. Nor do I believe I would allow anyone to force me down the mountain in any fashion. Until there is further clarification from USFS or some other governing body. Wildcat can make recomendations, such as the AMC staff may make recommendations on trails, tent sites, or other parts of the mountain.

Just my .02

Jerry

 

[natron]

sign?

was that there last year? glad I dawn patrolled Wildcat last year for the bagging and shredding of that peak in a little 5" snowstorm.. http://timefortuckerman.com/forums/showthread.php?t=14057

as far as forcing people off the hill? I know nobody wants to believe they can be physically forced from a hill, until it's too late and they find themselves outnumbered 4 to 1 by ski patrol... next thing ya know your hogtied to the back of a snowmobile eating snow

 

[bikehikeskifish]

They can certainly have police waiting for your arrival if you fail to cooperate. Susan Mathison's position has changed from last year when it was more of the tone "no, they can't keep you off, but they can keep you off closed trails, maintenance trails, or snowmaking trails". This year, it's she's not been quite as cooperative.

I will plan to go out and back from Carter Notch, and I will not be skiing at Wildcat, and they are aware of that.

Tim

 

[bobandgeri]

As Tim said - your on their leased land, and groomed trails. If you don't comply they won't physically force you into a snowcat, but they will escort you down and have the police waiting to arrest you for trespassing. You may end up going to court at great exspense to argue whether they can legally do that or not, but the local police always support the local business!

 

[NewHampshire]

At the risk of sounding like an internet tough guy, I find it hard to believe that anyone on the mountain is going to "force" me down on a snow-cat or snowmobile. Nor do I believe I would allow anyone to force me down the mountain in any fashion. Until there is further clarification from USFS or some other governing body. Wildcat can make recomendations, such as the AMC staff may make recommendations on trails, tent sites, or other parts of the mountain.

Just my .02

Jerry

Amen brother. It is one thing if the USFS turns around and says "Ok Wildcat, yes you can do that." But until then they can kiss my a$$. People can babble on about "leased land" this and "trespassing" that, but until the USFS says Wildcat has any right to do so they are crazy if they think they will get a penny from me to hike on what is theoretically public land.

But of course this is all moot. I have no reason to hike Wildcat again. In fact, when Jim and I would do trail maintenance we would occasionally "cheat" and take the gondola up so we could work from top down. Now I am reconsidering that just as my personal boycott of Wildcat......

Brian

 

[jgregoire]

was that there last year? glad I dawn patrolled Wildcat last year for the bagging and shredding of that peak in a little 5" snowstorm.. http://timefortuckerman.com/forums/showthread.php?t=14057


as far as forcing people off the hill? I know nobody wants to believe they can be physically forced from a hill, until it's too late and they find themselves outnumbered 4 to 1 by ski patrol... next thing ya know your hogtied to the back of a snowmobile eating snow

Until the fine Patrolers of any mountain are given lawful power of detention or assault, I would imagine that this kind of action would be certainly frowned upon by the owners of Wildcat. But if you are willing to allow such action, for the infraction of mountain climbing, I suggest you closely examine what else you would allow.

They can certainly have police waiting for your arrival if you fail to cooperate.

I will plan to go out and back from Carter Notch, and I will not be skiing at Wildcat, and they are aware of that.

Tim

I too will be informing wildcat of my intentions to use my buying power elsewhere. As for cooperation. Regarding Wildcat, I will choose to cooperate with regulations that are legislated by the USFS. I understand, although disagree with the charging sledders who climb with the intention of taking advantage of optimum sledding conditions. This does not apply to those who hike, backpack, climb or mountaineer.

As Tim said - your on their leased land, and groomed trails. If you don't comply they won't physically force you into a snowcat, but they will escort you down and have the police waiting to arrest you for trespassing. You may end up going to court at great exspense to argue whether they can legally do that or not, but the local police always support the local business!

Escorted or Thrust into or onto a snowcat or snowmobile is just not going to happen. Maybe bring up a law enforcement officer, whose authority I will follow, but I will not follow directions of those following the directions of those imposing their unfounded authority.

I am dumbfounded at the attitude expressed in posts in this thread, that would permit such authority to reign. I have hiked these mountains since I was a young boy. I bring my children up to these mountains to experience the wild, the backcountry and self-suffieciency that is needed in the mountains. I do not wish to purposefully disregard authority, but until there is a USFS dictate that states hikers are not permitted, I will do as I have done.

Jerry

 

[David Metsky]

Maybe bring up a law enforcement officer, but I will not follow directions of those following the directions of those imposing their unfounded authority.

This is unwise when dealing with police. Do what they say, argue later in court if you must. Regardless of if you think they are right or wrong, the cops will always win in the field.

 

[Kevin Rooney]

I haven't read this entire thread, so pardon me if this has been answered already, but:

If you hike along the ridge and wish to descend down Polecat, where would you buy a ticket? The summit chairlift station?

And what do they charge?

 

[Ed'n Lauky]

I understand the Wildcat position concerning winter hiking. I'd still like to know if there are going to be restrictions on summer hiking such as Cannon has imposed.

 

[jgregoire]

And to this I would agree. How we feel about Wildcat's methods and rulings is one thing. But police officers brought into this situation are only doing their job. If you treat a police officer with respect and realize he is only doing his job, then you will probably find the officer giving you a fair minded go at things and an equal return of respect. Start talking back and giving them attitude and you will find them less willing to treat you with equal levels of respect.

Brian

This is unwise when dealing with police. Do what they say, argue later in court if you must. Regardless of if you think they are right or wrong, the cops will always win in the field.

Gentleman, thank you for pointing out my mistake. I have edited my post. My intention was to say that I will not follow such direction from ski patrol, who I respect in their roles and authority in regards to skiiing.

My words, while not clear, we're intended to reflect my intention to follow the directions of those with lawful authority, to direct me off the mountain.

 

[JustJoe]

I have not seen, nor do I know the terms of the lease which Wildcat has with the USFS so I can not make an intelligent comment about it. It does sound from what I've read here that they don't have the right to charge. But for myself, I'm looking at this from a different perspective. I plan on finishing my winter list this year there so my fiancee' can join me and there's no way I'd get her up the WRT in winter. So it's going to be Polecat. I want this to be a great experience for both of us. So call it what will, cowing down to a bully, what ever.

I personally have no intention of ruining this experience haggling over $10. And for who ever else joins me on this day, I'll purchase their ticket. And who knows, once this is all worked out, maybe I'll get a refund.

 

[MichaelJ]

For the record, my position on this situation changed sides when I heard about people calling the Forest Service and saying they sled down Wildcat, they're going to continue sledding down Wildcat, and nobody can stop them (unlike other sledders who upon hearing that this was a major part of the problem, changed their plans to no longer go there). When I hear about "fine" people like that, going out there and ruining it for the rest of us, I can't help but take the side of enforcement to see those "fine" people stopped in their tracks. Not to mention that as a skier, the last thing I want to see on my first run of the morning is corduroy scarred up by sleds and full of postholes. I could care less if one of these bozos takes a header into a snowmaking gun.

Ahem.
*cough*

 

[bikehikeskifish]

A big part of the issue, as I understand it, is that one is only allowed on the trail with the pass during normal operating hours, which is generally inconvenient for some hikes. Like if you want to do the Wildcats + Carters in one trip, you are likely to start up Polecat before the lifts are operating, or come down well after they finish. So, even if one wanted to be in compliance, and was willing to pay $10, it would seem to be hard to do so.

I just heard about the sledders recently - that, to me, is inexcusable. It seems to me as a group we might do better to respect their wishes for now to show good faith in hopes they will welcome us in the future.

As you can see from above, Susan Mathison (Team Leader, Eastern Region Winter Sports Team, USDA Forest Service) did not take the hiker's side this year, as she did last.

Tim

 

[bikehikeskifish]

Here is the story from Susan from 2010-11 for comparison:

Tim,
You are correct - you may hike up and down along Wildcat's trail edges for no fee. Wildcat has the prerogative, however, to restrict this access to exclude specific times and trails to help insure safety of the public and of Wildcat employees; Wildcat supports safe (no interference with maintenance activities) and respectful (extreme trail edge) hiking for no fee access.

If you or others have received contrary information from the ski area or its employees, please do not hesitate to contact me with specifics and we will work with the ski area to resolve any misinformation that may have been provided.

Please don't hesitate to contact me at the number below if there is any additional information I can provide at this time.
Best regards,
-Susan.

Tim

 

[erugs]

I just heard about the sledders recently - that, to me, is inexcusable. It seems to me as a group we might do better to respect their wishes for now to show good faith in hopes they will welcome us in the future. Tim

Sledding is quite a bit more risky than hiking and the potential insurance risk is also high for the ski area. A friend of mine broke her back while sledding on a town slope on our first run of the morning about 8 years ago. Until that time, sledding had seemed safe and fun. When I was a kid back in the 50s/60s, we'd spend a winter's day sledding down the "front hill" where I lived, traffic was so limited in that Malden, MA hillside neighborhood. It was a really big deal when we "graduated" from the back hill to the front hill. How times have changed.

I agree with above, but reluctantly, that I would rather "buy in" now than be considered a ne'er do well.

 

[JCarter]

Here is the story from Susan from 2010-11 for comparison:

Tim,
You are correct - you may hike up and down along Wildcat's trail edges for no fee. Wildcat has the prerogative, however, to restrict this access to exclude specific times and trails to help insure safety of the public and of Wildcat employees; Wildcat supports safe (no interference with maintenance activities) and respectful (extreme trail edge) hiking for no fee access.

If you or others have received contrary information from the ski area or its employees, please do not hesitate to contact me with specifics and we will work with the ski area to resolve any misinformation that may have been provided.

Please don't hesitate to contact me at the number below if there is any additional information I can provide at this time.
Best regards,
-Susan.

Tim

If sledding is the problem, how about trying to get a clarification from the USFS that HIKING is allowed w/o fee. Sledding should simply be disallowed, or require some kind of pass. (I'm completely ok w/disallowed, since sledding probably tears up a groomed ski trail something awful)