One Day Pemi Loop - 21 hikers

TJsName said:

The maps (here: http://www.fs.usda.gov/Internet/FSE_...rdb5186043.pdf) reminded me that the only Wilderness areas for the Pemi Loop are from near the Guyot Shelter Spur (I don't remember exactly where the sign is) to the Bridge over Franconia Brook.

Also of note to me was the line 'Only campsites showing no former human impacts should be selected for use.' (page 28). This directly contradicts the LNT practice of using established hardened (legal) campsites when available.

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While the AMC maps are pretty good at showing the wilderness areas I still like to look at these maps every once in a while to remind myself where the areas are.

While the principles of LNT do focus on traveling and camping on durable surfaces they also provide guidance for camping in undisturbed remote areas.

https://lnt.org/learn/principle-2

Stinkyfeet said:

Some good points being stated here.

If anyone out there still reads books, may I suggest Wilderness Ethics, by L&G Waterman? IMHO this book, specifically Chapter 7 ("The Numbers Racket - Large Parties and Wildness"), should be required reading for anyone leading groups into the backcountry. This goes for the AMC, Meetup, college/school groups, religious groups, etc. I have personally witnessed each of these four groups break the group-size rule. (Anything by Ed Abbey would be suggested reading as well.)

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+1

"The love of wilderness is more than a hunger for what is always beyond reach; it is also an expression of loyalty to the earth, the earth which bore us and sustains us, the only paradise we shall ever know, the only paradise we ever need, if only we had the eyes to see.” ― Edward Abbey

Regarding the OP, I don't lead many hikes these days, but would not take more than 10 anywhere in general when I did (scouts and school groups), wilderness or not. As far as planning a 20+ group to do an endurance hike like that? TEHO, but it seems like that is asking for trouble. I like to know the individuals to some degree in the group for that kind of day.

I'm surprised no one commented on the umbrella in the gear list. I also like the, "extra t-shirt .. in case you get sweaty!"

MichaelJ said:

From WMNF Forest Management Plan, Appendix E "Wilderness Management Plan" section 5.3 (emphasis original)

Wilderness Zone A (areas 500' or more off-trail): "Group number should be kept to a minimum, preferably four or fewer people but never more than ten."

Wilderness Zone B, C, and D: "Group number should be kept to a minimum, preferably six or fewer people and never exceeding ten."

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OK, so the rule is 10, with suggestions of 4 or 6 in some areas. While suggestions are valid, lets not go overboard claiming people are breaking rules when they aren't. (While I agree the WMP is an important reference, the FS hasn't decided these suggestions are important enough to include in the the published regulations. The enforceable standard is the published regulations.) I think we can all agree that 21(or 100) is a larger number than 10.

RoySwkr said:

Many 4k are in Wilderness but Adams isn't one of them

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The south and east sides of Adams are almost entirely within the Great Gulf Wilderness. This includes the Star Lake Trail and Buttress Trails. According to my maps, the summit is on the boundary.

SherpaWill said:

I'm surprised no one commented on the umbrella in the gear list. I also like the, "extra t-shirt .. in case you get sweaty!"

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I now carry an umbrella if I'm expecting rain and think I'll be able to use it! It improves my wilderness experience.

I carry an extra base layer shirt in the winter only. When I get to the summit, I shuck my wet shirt, try to dry in the cold wind, then add my dry shirt for the descent, it really feels good to add that dry layer. In the summer I either dry my shirt in the sun on the summit or rough it and don't bother. As far as an umbrella, I did buy a great one from EMS years ago. In the end, I stopped packing it, its hard to hold the short handle and I would rather use both my trekking poles. It does come in handy walking my dog at home though.

sierra said:

As far as an umbrella, I did buy a great one from EMS years ago. In the end, I stopped packing it, its hard to hold the short handle and I would rather use both my trekking poles

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http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=vN11IQMR7ok

skiguy said:

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=vN11IQMR7ok

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Very good system.

skiguy said:

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=vN11IQMR7ok

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I tried this out on Memorial Day (which was a wee bit on the wet side). It worked really well. The only issues were occasionally branches getting in the way, which wasn't a huge deal on the Garfield Ridge and Skookumchuck trails. There are many trails where it wouldn't be worth the hassle. I'd also use the set-up if it were really sunny and not terribly windy. That said, a rain shell is more widely practical!

sierra said:

I carry an extra base layer shirt in the winter only. When I get to the summit, I shuck my wet shirt, try to dry in the cold wind, then add my dry shirt for the descent, it really feels good to add that dry layer.

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I've taken up the exact same habit. I find having a wet base layer for the descent makes me considerably colder. I got chilled going down the Skook a couple winters ago and didn't like it. Now I change when I hit the summit. I'm usually plenty warm that it's almost refreshing - it's quite invigorating to go shirtless for a few seconds, but the dryness outweighs any downside. That said, an extra base layer in the summer seems kind of useless. If your sweating through, you'll sweat through the other one, and if its wet from rain, then you should have brought an umbrella. If you fell in a brook... well, your backup might get soaked too.

Well, tomorrow's the BIG DAY!

una_dogger said:

Well, tomorrow's the BIG DAY!

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http://ngm.nationalgeographic.com/2013/06/everest/img/01-hilary-step-580v.jpg

sierra said:

As far as an umbrella, I did buy a great one from EMS years ago. In the end, I stopped packing it, its hard to hold the short handle and I would rather use both my trekking poles. It does come in handy walking my dog at home though.

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On my ADK46 finish to Allen (similar to Owls Head - long "flattish approach to a slide) a few years ago it was raining when I left the parking lot so I chose to use the resources that were at my disposal - a long handled golf umbrella. I ditched it in the woods for the climb up the slide and retrieved it on my way back home.

http://youtu.be/FvXkDH-Q7Lw

So I'm told 7 people went. And I'm also told that this is a typical attrition rate. In the words of the traffic cop:

"Move along folks, nothing to see here ... Move along ... "

Tom Rankin said:

So I'm told 7 people went. And I'm also told that this is a typical attrition rate. In the words of the traffic cop:

"Move along folks, nothing to see here ... Move along ... "

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I really think six and a half should be the maximum.