Who Are These People???? (Rant on Illegal Camping in the Whites)

Here is my own Osceola story that I meant to post about a month ago. I left the parking lot on Tripoli Road about 5 on a Sunday evening, approached the summit about an hour later to find clothes, boots, etc., strewn all over the outlook, then heard a woman's voice cry "see, I told you that I heard someone coming," then a man's voice directed at me "hey, stop, we need privacy," to which I replied, "screw you, you do not own this mountain; I also will be hiking back through here from East Osceola in about 40 minutes."

On my return from East Osceola, same clothes, boots, etc., were still strewn all over the outlook, but now the couple had also pitched their tent right next to the outlook. Then, about 100 yards down the trail I came across the guy taking a dump in a small stream right next to the trail, to which he said to me, "well, at least I have more clothes on now." I was too speechless to respond. I got back to the parking lot just before dark, too late to find a ranger on the Tripoli Road (that would have been way cool if a ranger could have busted them at 5 in the morning for illegally camping on the summit).

For those of you who are not familiar with the USFS camping regs for the Tripoli Road, just about anything goes (i.e., HUGE bonfires, indiscriminate cutting of trees for firewood, dozens of vehicles next to individual camping sites, etc., etc.; I think that the USFS has decided to sacrifice this one area of the Whites to as much abuse as humanity has to offer the wilderness). But, I had not expected this behavior on the summits.

I feel the frustration, but I, too, keep on trying. Some people are clueless, but many just don't care. Why do empty beer cans and drink bottles become heavier when they are empty?

A sad part I also find is much of the trash I pack out and damage I witness comes from school / camp groups. If the kids don't learn 'leave no trace' when they are young the cycle continues.

Dr. Dasypodidae said:

Here is my own Osceola story that I meant to post about a month ago. I left the parking lot on Tripoli Road about 5 on a Sunday evening, approached the summit about an hour later to find clothes, boots, etc., strewn all over the outlook, then heard a woman's voice cry "see, I told you that I heard someone coming," then a man's voice directed at me "hey, stop, we need privacy," to which I replied, "screw you, you do not own this mountain; I also will be hiking back through here from East Osceola in about 40 minutes."

On my return from East Osceola, same clothes, boots, etc., were still strewn all over the outlook, but now the couple had also pitched their tent right next to the outlook. Then, about 100 yards down the trail I came across the guy taking a dump in a small stream right next to the trail, to which he said to me, "well, at least I have more clothes on now." I was too speechless to respond. I got back to the parking lot just before dark, too late to find a ranger on the Tripoli Road (that would have been way cool if a ranger could have busted them at 5 in the morning for illegally camping on the summit).

For those of you who are not familiar with the USFS camping regs for the Tripoli Road, just about anything goes (i.e., HUGE bonfires, indiscriminate cutting of trees for firewood, dozens of vehicles next to individual camping sites, etc., etc.; I think that the USFS has decided to sacrifice this one area of the Whites to as much abuse as humanity has to offer the wilderness). But, I had not expected this behavior on the summits.

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You shoulda taken the clothes on your return and deposited them in the nearest dumster on your way out.

I'm amazed that the aren't teached LNT to Boy Scouts and other such youth groups. The days of campfires and cutting down trees to make camp furniture are over.

Dr. Dasypodidae said:

approached the summit about an hour later to find clothes, boots, etc., strewn all over the outlook, then heard a woman's voice cry "see, I told you that I heard someone coming," then a man's voice directed at me "hey, stop, we need privacy,"

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I told you these people breed a lot!

Peri,
Kudos to you for your efforts. Don't let these jerks discourage you!!

I'll never forget a short 6 mile day hike up a beautiful little mountain in the 'Dacks called Crane about 5 years ago. It's a kinda popular, but on this day there were very few people.

I was coming up to the summit and there were two "kids" -early 20-somethings-gazing south and enjoying the view. Before my eyes I see the guy stand up and launch a bottle from which he had been drinking right over the edge of the cliff into the forest. I was DUMBFOUNDED! I was so shocked that I couldn't even bring myself to open up my mouth (normally not a problem). Before I had collected myself enough to say something and gotten over my anger, they had left the summit. To this day I am angry at MYSELF for not walking over to him and threatening to launch HIM over that same cliff. I couldn't believe that someone had enough care to climb this mountain but not enough respect to not litter on the mountain. ARRRGGGGHHHHH! This is only one of many stories all of us have, but this one really sticks in my craw.

I decided right then and there that I would no longer sit idly by when I observed behavior that was so callous. Rarely have I crossed the line to open my mouth, but I have done so and will continue to do so. We all owe it to our mountains to stand up and educate these people, or failing that, to impress upon them how grossly wrong their actions are. Problem is...many of them just don't care, no matter if they are caught or not. Perhaps I'll threaten to sic Dakota on them. She looks mean even if she's not!

[It really is such a difficult issue to "take things into one's own hands" and this needs to be balanced with safety, attitude and common sense. But then there are those circumstances like what Peri experienced that DEMAND some sort of action.]

I hesitate to weigh in on this one, but;

First, your efforts are wonderfull and I hope that you continue. Just as there is a certain percentage of people that love and appreciate those wild places as we do, there is a certain percentage that either does not care, or does not realize that there is a larger impact on the land than just "thier" 1-2 night stay.

This has been a problem forever, As Alpine stated "his" bottle discovery and for that matter, or even the nifty historical pots and pan artifacts along the Street/Nye route is nothing but OLD GARBAGE. We thought it cool when we saw it, but had it been fresh, we would have freaked. Others mentioned the 60's and 70's when the problems were worse. But thanks to the efforts of many groups (and individuals), MORE hkers are probably embracing the "new ethic" of low impact hiking then ever before. I think much of that has to do with the EDUCATION efforts.

In Waterman's book "Wilderness Ethics" (a must read), I remember reading something about the 46ers effort to to have a "trowel handout" to help with the "crap" issue. On a cost/effect basis, it was not considered real effective (my understanding anyways), however the effort itself, made people more aware and think about the issues of what to do with crap in the backcountry. Improvments were noted. So, the program may not been a success as originally designed, but it had a NET positive effect on the situation.

I think we continue to educate, pick up litter, quietly fix up messed up site sites, and report abuses to the PROPER PEOPLE. We can hopefully change the action of a few of the "unknowing" offenders. I suppose that what those of "us" that consider ourselves stwards should be doing. Keep up the good work. I'm quite sure that trying to reach to "do not care" folks, will only frustrate and drive you insame. Report those you find and continue to do what you are doing.

Pulling out my hair!

These instances make me want to rip my hair out in frustration. I am however, known on many an occassion to somewhat embarrass my hiking partner by my brazen attitude towards morons like these. If I have it together and don't get too hot-headed, I can often be quite impressive. Like the one time we were hiking and i found some garbage left on the trail - it was all in Chinese. There was a group ahead of us that was of that ethnicity and I knew it belonged to them. So I picked it up and waited until we were on the summit. There were several folks up on top by this time. I then took all the garbage and walked towards them and as loud as I could, so everyone could hear say " oh excuse me, i'm sorry but I believe you left this right on the trail" then walked over to them and dumped it on their blanket. Then I proceeded to tell them " if I see one more scrap of your garbage on the trail, or proof of you in any way disrespecting this environment, I will see you slapped with a nice big $1500 fine and your picture posted on the internet". Of course part of my bravado was bluff, I didn't actually have a picture of them and I had no authority to fine them or even know the amount of the fine, but they didn't know that! For the most part tho, I think we are pretty lucky up here in the daks, I don't see too much trash and stuff like the original poster talks about; mostly it's just blabbermouths and cell phone users! But one thing I have learned - nothing is accomplished by keeping your mouth shut. you don't have to pick a fight but these people have to be told what they are doing is wrong. and sometimes, little things like maybe tossing that one couple's clothes over the mountain side don't hurt either. (well maybe not over the mountain side but just take them and run!.....)

I agree with many of you that I should have said something to the Osceola couple camping and etc. on the summit, but I literally was so flabberghasted, I could not speak. This was an unusual experience for me on a hike in the Whites, as over the hundreds of miles that I hike each year, I see little trash or such idiotic behavior as I witnessed recently on Osceola. I did speak up once to a USFS ranger who I noticed dropping some trash on the Bridal Path (Mt. Lafayette) a couple of years ago, and he vociferously denied doing it. Oh, well.....

Re: Pulling out my hair!

shadowcat said:

These instances make me want to rip my hair out in frustration. I am however, known on many an occassion to somewhat embarrass my hiking partner by my brazen attitude towards morons like these........................

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Uh oh...... I'm gonna get in trouble for this, but............ With all due respect Shadowcat, I'm not sure confrontation is neccesarily the best course of action in the backcountry. For one, there's an issue of safety. There are alot of people out there that are "not wrapped real tight", and it is really a good thing to get into a screaming match in the woods with a total stranger that you've no knowledge of thier psychiatric/criminal history.

Secondly, in my experience, people meet an OFFENSIVE posture with a DEFENSIVE reaction. Your words will then have little or no effect except to make them angry at you. In fact, with some passive-agressive types, you'll encourage them to litter more after you leave, just because they can.

I'm not saying ignore it. If you siddle up to the "suspected litterers" and start a conversation, then later drop a simple, "oh yeah, Is this your garbage I found back a ways, It must have accidentlly fallen from your pack when you got up". "Do you have a trash bag? if not I always carry an extra". Same message and you likely haven't enraged a potential homicidal lunitic .

That's not always easy I know, I remember shaking with anger when I nicely informed a couple kids that had pitched a tent at Indian Falls that "camping was NO LONGER permitted in that spot" and got an "F-you jerk" in reply. Initially, I really wanted to "kick some ass", but settled for moving along and reporting the incident to a ranger at the trailhead (who radioed another in the area to correct the situation).

We, the general public, no matter how much we love the places we visit, are not eco-enforcers. All we can do is advocate that people treat "our mutual" resources with respect. btw, as some have said, the whole premise for the initial post makes me sad as well, but not altogether shocked.

mavs 00

that's why i said "when i'm not too hotheaded about it"...
i know if i yell and scream i will probably get a defensive reaction. usually i try to be very nice, but embarass them even if they dont' even get that's what i am doing. maybe my description made it sound like i was more agressive than i actually was. actually my "tone" was more like "oh i think you dropped this on the trail -- like i had just found their headlamp or something" and i shouldn't have used the word dumped - more like took the containers i had and gave them back to them, one by one. i def wasn't agressive, maybe a bit condescendingly sarcastic ?? trust me i don't want the crap beat outta me!

About 10 yrs ago coming down the Osseo Trail I ran into 6 guys that had a campfire going right in the middle of the trail and were cooking hotdogs. I quietly moved through the area and waited for my hiking partner to catch up. He and I were completly dumbfounded and angry in what we saw. We both did not say anything to them do to the simple fact that they all seemed "impaired" and two of them had machettes tied to their packs.

I figured as much

Shadowcat, I pretty much knew that, I was mostly just letting the lurkers know that ther isn't hordes of "VFTT" maniacs out there ready to accost them on the trails.

On second thought, mabye there should be

btw the clothes would have certainly come off the mountain with ME.

clothes would have certainly come off the mountain

i know! how could you resist? the best would be to grab all their clothes then hide in the bushes with a camera, and snap shots of them frantically running around for their clothes! or wait down by the parking lot for them to come down in some fashion of creative clothing or better yet butt naked! there's no way i would have been able to keep from taking the clothes, that's just too good to pass up - i would still be laughing my ass off.

Carry a cell phone, and call it in if you can.

Confrontation is not productive

GRT poop drop

>>>>on Garfield Ridge trail Saturday, I came across a spot where someone, ah, answered nature's call right along the edge of a rather narrow section of the trail. Pretty disgusting.

Someone else left a note next to it that said "This is why we filter our water" and then something else illegible.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++


Hey, I saw that too on my Hut Traverse last Thursday...It was good for a (somewhat disgusting) chuckle. I am trying to picture what the offender would have done if caught in the act in the very narrow and exposed "drop zone" they chose

While one may feel that taking someone's clothes who is doing something offensive in the backcountry is a form of justice a bit of thought brings this to mind:

Clothes are gear and can be needed for safety and survival. Even fools have the right to threaten their own safety with out help from others.

I knows there's a lot of fun as well a real desire to teach a lesson going on here, but I think this needs to be pointed out.

Re: Re: Pulling out my hair!

"That's not always easy I know, I remember shaking with anger when I nicely informed a couple kids that had pitched a tent at Indian Falls that "camping was NO LONGER permitted in that spot" and got an "F-you jerk" in reply. Initially, I really wanted to "kick some ass", but settled for moving along and reporting the incident to a ranger at the trailhead (who radioed another in the area to correct the situation)."

The good news is that others may not know my criminal/psychiatric history, either. Fear works both ways.
Wouldn't it be fun to confront those people with a twitching face, thousand-yard stare, and excessive laughter, saying, "lots of people have been harmed at this site.. harmed at this site... harmed at his site by some psycho [chuckle-twitch]... and the authorities don't even know about all of it."


Legal disclaimer: This is sarcasm. please don't try this. I will not reimburse your hospital bills or bail money

True warren, but..

Ok, Ok so you dont take the clothes from "adam and eve of osceola" but here is what you do; take their shoelaces......
Osceola is a tame mountain, weather looks good, no one is going to lose a toe. But boy will she let him have it every awkward step along the way home.
P.S. bonus evil points for using the shoelaces to spell something offensive at the trailhead.

rangers? where?

i have yet to see a ranger while hiking in the daks to report anything to. maybe they are more available in other areas but i wouldn't even know where to call to get ahold of one if i had to report something. so since i've brought this up, how would you contact a ranger if you had a problem in the daks? who do you call and phone number?
ya and all these things we say we'd do; most of the time hindsight is always better - often you don't say or do anything at the time bec you don't want to create a scene but afterwards you come up with all these things you "could" have done or "wished" you'd done. sometimes they are very calculated and proper and other times they are darn right down and dirty. in all honesty; it's those down and dirty ones that are the most fun to at least "think" about, even if you'd never really do them. (like taking their clothes - you can't help but picture that!) ------ reminds me of the time i caught my "best" friend and my boyfriend in the sauna together ... and all their clothes were right outside the door. now what do you think i did in that case?