Advice for a winter bag purchase

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B the Hiker

B the Hiker

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Hi all,

A friend who is getting into winter hiking and backpacking just emailed me looking for advice about the purchase of a winter bag. Frankly, I am of limited use, so I though I would post his email here, and see if anyone can shed some wisdom. I will pass on the URL so he can follow.

Thanks!


Brian

# # #

Need a second opinion:

http://www.campmor.com/outdoor/gear/Product___44240

http://www.campmor.com/outdoor/gear/Product___44020

The North Face Tundra receives mixed reviews trailspace.com. Some say it simply isn't a true -20 bag. A slightly larger bag at 84" in length. I'm 5'9". The bag supposedly weighs 3lbs 14oz. Costs $200-$250 depending.

The MH Lamina -15 received glowing reviews on a few different sites, including trailspace.com; however, it's 4lbs 14oz. It is 78" in length, and again I'm 5'9" Costs $150.

Any insight would be appreciated,
 
I've found that once you read the reviews you have about all you're going to know until you try it yourself.

I have the NF Tundra and I like how it packs small, is light and it has kept me warm with long undies on nights down to 10 degrees (not including windchill) on a few occasions. I'm not really looking to camp below 0, but the -20 is more of a "just-in-case" for me. And this is why the reviews are somewhat limited in use....I stay pretty warm at night anyway, so maybe any bag would be fine.
 
Given these two choices, I'd buy the Tundra over the Lamina, even at a higher cost, if I planned to do a lot of subzero stuff. The Lamina is discounted because it's a bit dated for fill technology. I haven't slept in a Tundra but I've sold my share of them.

Whether your friend would actually feel warm at -20 is dependent on the insulation under the bag, the air movement over the bag (shelter or not), the clothing worn, and your friend's metabolism while sleeping. I am a warm sleeper, but I would not hesitate to recommend the Tundra for "most" winter camping in the Northeast with adequate insulation underneath.

Note however that there's a comfort threshold at -20 F that can seem more like a precipice when you try to stretch a -20 bag to -30. It's not a linear thing -- it's more like an exponential function.
 
I've got the NF 0 degree synthetic bag (Snowshoe) and if I had to do it over again, I'd get the -20 Tundra. My 0 degree bag has been fine for the limited amount of winter backpacking I've done but the flexibilty of another 20 degrees would be nice.
 
as mentioned by sardog1, there are other factors in winter that equal warmth, like 2 pads instead of one, what you're wearing, your motab, what you've eaten before going to sleep, what you're sleeping in, if you're using a bivy bag/nylon shell with your sleeping bag, your perception of "what is warm", etc etc.

Having said that, these are both synthetic bags. I've never slept in a synth bag in winter. I do have a Valandre down expedition bag that is comparable to their current "Odin", which is rated to -40. I'd be confident with this bag to -20. It's got something like 2 1/2 pounds of 850 or 900 power fill down and inflates like a balloon when released from the stuff sack. It retails for something like $600 or $700.

I guess my point is I doubt, FWIW, a REAL -20 bag is available for under $200.
 
We have two -20 synthetic bags here from REI. (Looks like they have been discontinued, as they are not featured on the REI web site now.) I have slept comfortably in mine below -20. They are both designed as winter bags should be, with very good collars and draft tubes on the zippers. As I recall, they were in fact something around $200 when purchased. (They are a whole lot more fun to take along if a dog is available for the pulk-pulling duty. :) )
 
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Down Vrs Synthetic vrs $$$

I've got to agree with Chip on this one. I've owned quite a few different North Face bags and other various bags. I've been more than satisfied with down bags. I think they keep you warmer and pack down much nicer. I had a zero degree bag on Mt Rainier by Moonstone(no longer in business) with
Dryloft coating. I also have a great North Face -20 degree bag in which I've never been cold in yet. Both of these bags are at least 750 fill down. I've used it on some pretty cold nights in the Whites. Don't skimp on price ! If you want to remain warm at night spend the dollars. I've used two pads at times and it helps greatly. I use a Thermarest z-pad combined with a 3/4 light Therarest blow up .. Comb works well. If you're going to do quite a bit of winter camping don't skimp because if you do chances are you'll end up spending the money later for a better bag.

Pulker Pete.
 
KPMMBM said:
I've got the NF 0 degree synthetic bag (Snowshoe) and if I had to do it over again, I'd get the -20 Tundra. My 0 degree bag has been fine for the limited amount of winter backpacking I've done but the flexibilty of another 20 degrees would be nice.
Click to expand...

I picked up a 0 Snowshoe last year and quickly returned it after a cold (low single digits but not below zero) night. Problem seemed to be that the loft in the toe box was unevenly distributed and there was an area with minimal coverage causing so really cold toes. Don't know that this would be specific to any brand/model bag but I'll look a lot more closely with the next one for any potential defects in construction.
 
I'm w/ Pete...I have a variety of bags..some from trial and error...Spend the $$ and get a good 800 down bag if you are backpacking..you will appreciate the weight and warmth..I use a MontBell UL 0* bag...I've used it in the ADK's in temps of -15*...in a tent w/ a light down sweater and lightweight down pants when sleeping..and have stayed plenty warm. I do tend to sleep warm and everyone is different..:D
 
I have not heard good things about TNF bags and temperature ratings. The Laminas are nice bags; I almost bought the -30 Lamina and think that's a good way to go for a sub-zero synthetic bag. Heavy and bulky, tho. The -15 strikes me as insufficient for a deep winter bag and heavy for a shoulder season bag.

I think your friend should borrow or rent for a night or two before buying; that sort of deal does come around fairly regularly. I current have an unclaimed spot in my tent if they'll be at Cardigan, so there's the backup option of the lodge if something doesn't work out.
 
sardog1 said:
We have two -20 synthetic bags here from REI. (Looks like they have been discontinued, as they are not featured on the REI web site now.) I have slept comfortably in mine below -20. They are both designed as winter bags should be, with very good collars and zipper baffles. As I recall, they were in fact something around $200 when purchased. (They are a whole lot more fun to take along if a dog is available for the pulk-pulling duty. :) )
Click to expand...

Certainly will defer to you on this one. Synthetics are less $ than down. All ratings are suspect for both. Down packs better and weighs less. Down can get damp and lose loft.
 
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We both have -20 SD down bags and Bob has a TNF zero degree down bag.

In Carter Hut when the temps was -17 bob slept with his bag partially unzipped and was comfy. Geri was cold. Last weekend wit temps in low single digits, Geri was cold in her -20, Bob was toasty in his TNF.

As others have said, much is dependant on things other than the actual bag. All three bags are well designed - a couple of water bottlesfilled with hot water put into the bag before you crawl in will warm them up nicely.
 
Chip said:
Certainly will defer to you on this one. Synthetics are less $ that down. All ratings are suspect for both.
Click to expand...
I generally figure that loft is a more reliable indicator of warmth than manufacturer's ratings. (See my previous post for Army tables on warmth vs thickness (loft) and some numbers from real bags.) Of course, features also matter. For instance, it takes more heat to stay warm in a roomy bag than in a close-fit bag, draft collars conserve heat, a good hood conserves heat (I always wear a balaclava too).

EMS used to perform and publish consistent loft tests for the bags that they sold, but no longer do so.

There is a European standard for rating sleeping bags that seems to have appeared recently. (A description may be found in http://www.rei.com/expertadvice/articles/sleeping+bag+backpacking.html .) Hopefully it is more consistent than manufacturers' ratings.

BTW, REI also has a nice write-up on how to care for and wash a sleeping bag: http://www.rei.com/expertadvice/articles/caring+sleeping+bag.html.

Doug
 
B the Hiker said:
Any insight would be appreciated,
Click to expand...

I don't know if this helps but I have a synthetic 20 mummy and a synthetic 40 rectangular over bag. Along with a emergency bivy bag is good down to zero, so far. Cheap and fairly light weight.

I got the over bag idea from Big Agness.
 
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DougPaul said:
I generally figure that loft is a more reliable indicator of warmth than manufacturer's ratings.
Doug
Click to expand...

Totally agree, but as you point out, if loft isn't published, it can't be used by the inquiring consumer, whereas fill weight and down quality can be. I wouldn't trust loft measurements by manufacturers anyway, right ? Why would those be more reliable than temp ratings from the manufacturer ?
 
DougPaul said:
There is a European standard for rating sleeping bags that seems to have appeared recently. (A description may be found in http://www.rei.com/expertadvice/articles/sleeping+bag+backpacking.html .) Hopefully it is more consistent than manufacturers' ratings.

Doug
Click to expand...

Good link, worth reading. It does mention that this is being used for their 3 season bag ratings. I wonder if that's just them or if the test method is less accurate for lower temps and is not being used for winter bags. :confused:

also good info on synthetics;

from REI article said:
...The downside is that a synthetic bag offers a little less warmth for its weight, plus its insulating power gets reduced each time it is stuffed into a stuff sack. There is a long list of competing brand names for synthetic insulations, which can make shopping confusing. A more relevant distinction is knowing whether a synthetic insulator is short-staple or a continuous filament.

Short-staple fills (e.g., PrimaLoft®) are the predominate choice. These feature short strands of fine-denier filaments that are densely packed to minimize heat loss. This makes these bags feel soft and flexible, much like a down bag, and allows for great compressibility. They are, however, a bit less durable.

Continuous-filament fills (e.g., Climashield®) use a thicker continuous filament that is lofty, strong and durable. They have a stiffer feel and are less compressible than short-staple bags.
Click to expand...
 
Chip said:
Totally agree, but as you point out, if loft isn't published, it can't be used by the inquiring consumer, whereas fill weight and down quality can be. I wouldn't trust loft measurements by manufacturers anyway, right ? Why would those be more reliable than temp ratings from the manufacturer ?
Click to expand...
I have measured the loft in a store. You just have to be able to lay the bag out flat for a while (half hour or longer). Bring your own tape measure.

You can also open the bag to try to measure the top and bottom independently for bags with differential loft.

Doug
 
My friend asked me to convey his thanks you all for your comments! I didn't realize he is allergic to down, which is why he is going the synthetic route.

This is such a great forum!


Brian
 
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