Alpine Ski Areas in MA for a novice

[Mark_151]

Outtabounds

I need to partially take back my earlier comments on the Outtabounds. I had a chance to use them again at Windblown yesterday during the storm. There was about 4 inches of fresh unbroken powder on the Open Slope, so I tried tele turns again. This time I had no problem making turns. Although, I did have to exagerate the motion to get them to turn as easy as my heavy gear. I really had to drop the knee much lower than the heavy gear to weigh the rear ski and get it to hook up.

On getting home, however, I discovered that on one ski, the base is beginning to de-laminate from the rest of the ski! This is only the 4th time I've used these skis, so I believe now I have a defective pair. Some investigation of the turning problems on Google brought up only one other person with a similar problem. Turns out Fischer determined this pair had more camber than the factory spec, so he got a replacement. My experience on hard, old snow versus powder kind of confirms something's up.

I'm going to send these back to Fischer, and while I'm at it, I'm going to see if I can get them replaced with the waxable version.

Mark

 

[DougPaul]

I come from an alpine and later a nordic background, and quite honestly know very little about BC skiing other than what I've been soaking up on this forum and others in the last couple of years.

With that background, I'd say you are ready to try some easy BC skiing. (At least as far as the skiing is concerned. All of the safety and technique required for winter hiking applies except for the change in mode of transport.)

A couple of good beginner tours:
* Greely Ponds from Waterville to the ponds. ~7-8 mi RT
* Lincoln Woods/East Side Tr out to the bridge at 5.5 mi. (The first 3 mi of LWT are track set.) A nice loop. One short steepish section (intermediate) on the East Side Tr--walk it if you aren't willing to ski it. (Trivial on the way out.) As much or as little of it as you wish. The side trip to Franconia Falls is easy too.
* Zealand Hut from Rte 302 is mostly easy. Just one fairly short section to provide some (intermediate) challenge. Easy road ski to just beyond the summer trailhead.
* Goodman's book, " Backcountry Skiing Adventures", lists some easy tours.
* The WMNF maitains some ski trails: http://www.fs.fed.us/r9/white/recreation/skiing/index.html Shown on the AMC Winter Trails map.

Wait for some good snow conditions (with enough base to cover the rocks) and give it a try. Also good info at http://home.comcast.net/~pinnah/DirtbagPinner/dirtbag.html.

Going to have to get used to the different binding mount position, to say nothing about 3-pin bindings, telemark turns, climbing skins and skiing with a heavier pack and/or pulling a sled.

It's all good, except maybe for the heavier pack and the sled.

BTW, the BC binding mount position is the same as (classic) XC. To a first approximation, BC gear is just heavy duty XC gear. (Or maybe XC gear is just light-weight BC gear. Take your choice. )

Doug

 

[dave.m]

I tried unsuccessfully to learn to "snowplow" on my Pavos and my fear of heading downhill too fast has been hindering my backcountry skiing. But a couple of days on the slopes with rented alpine skis and I am already feeling very confident and getting better.

sli74,

FWIW, I think you are absolutely on the right track. Focus on the wedge, and a basic neutral body position and rack up miles on the alpine skis. The trick is to ingrain the feeling of a good wedge in you muscle memory. Once it seeps into your bone marrow and dna, it becomes much easier to replicate on the lighter gear. However.....

I will be trying out my Pavos with my newly learned techniques this weekend.

... I think there are 3 big technique differences to pay attention of.

The first is that with lighter nordic gear you really need to think about the ankles and on alpine gear, you think about the knees. Alpine boots don't bend much. As a result, alpine skiing happens mostly at the knee. Light nordic gear offers no such support. But, if you bend at the ankles, the knees will fall in line.

The second is the need for exagerated up and down movements. Up and down is not emphasized on modern shaped skis so much any more. On lighter, straighter gear, you need this.

The third thing is the need for what we used to call foot steering. Again, with modern shaped skis, you just put the ski on edge and let the ski turn. On straighter skis, you additionally need to turn the outside foot to the inside as you turn.

If this isn't making sense, it might make sense to get a private lesson from an older alpine instructor how can even remember this stuff.

 

[DougPaul]

I need to partially take back my earlier comments on the Outtabounds. I had a chance to use them again at Windblown yesterday during the storm. There was about 4 inches of fresh unbroken powder on the Open Slope, so I tried tele turns again. This time I had no problem making turns. Although, I did have to exagerate the motion to get them to turn as easy as my heavy gear. I really had to drop the knee much lower than the heavy gear to weigh the rear ski and get it to hook up.

Skiing the ungroomed (or BC) snow is a little different from the groomed. On a hard surface, you can just push the ski into the desired position or lift it up and set it down where you want it--in powder, you have to steer them into position. Takes a little more technique. I had the (rare in NE) luxury of skiing in bottomless powder a few weeks ago. I had to keep my weight shared equally between my two skis--any time I weighted one and not the other, the weighted ski would sink. All of the ski positioning had to be done by steering.

A high stance tends to go with hard snow surfaces and high, stiff (plastic) boots and a low stance tends to go with soft snow and lower more flexible boots. (Not hard and fast rules--there is the full range of styles.) I personally find Teles easier on soft snow with my light-weight Tele rig and parallels easier on hard (groomed) snow with my heavy Tele rig. And if need be, I'll tele (or try to tele) using my (camber-and-a-half) BC skis.

It has been said that an expert can Tele on a pair of 2x4's in good conditions. Fortunately, I own several pairs of skis...

I'm going to send these back to Fischer, and while I'm at it, I'm going to see if I can get them replaced with the waxable version.

A good choice. But you already know my bias.

Doug

 

[sli74]

Thank you Dave.m

My biggest problem with my Pavos is the lack of ankle support . . . I mistakingly got the NNN-BC binding system and wish now I had a 3-pin system. With my weak ankles, I find alpine boots a better fit for my ankles.

However, I am getting very good at the snowplow and also at turning from a wedge on the alpine skis and will find out how comfortable I am on my Pavos with my newly learned skills.

I will probably be looking for advice on buying alpine skis this spring when the prices drop a little

Good thing I don't eat out or drink very much . . . need to save money for the gear

sli74

 

[DougPaul]

My biggest problem with my Pavos is the lack of ankle support . . . I mistakingly got the NNN-BC binding system and wish now I had a 3-pin system. With my weak ankles, I find alpine boots a better fit for my ankles.

You can change the bindings, if need be.

However, I am getting very good at the snowplow and also at turning from a wedge on the alpine skis and will find out how comfortable I am on my Pavos with my newly learned skills.

You may find the balance a little more critical because of the loose heel. Shouldn't be hard to adjust to.

Indian Summer Tr at Wachusett is one good place to try the Pavos. Any XC area would also be a good place to get some experience. Or any easy BC trail with a few ups and downs.

I will probably be looking for advice on buying alpine skis this spring when the prices drop a little

Or step up and get Tele gear. (Sorry, couldn't resist...)

I chose Tele because my backgound was BC and XC and Tele was the next step in the continuium. Also the Tele gear works well in both BC and lift-served--Tele gear can also be waxed and used as overweight XC gear (useful for approaches to the steeps). (Alpine gear doesn't tour or climb well. Alpine touring (AT or Rondonee (fr)) which is essentially alpine with a releaseable heel for level and uphill travel would also cover both.) There are people who enjoy both or who became disenchanted with one and switched to the other.

Good thing I don't eat out or drink very much . . . need to save money for the gear

Addictions can be expensive, but if you treat the gear well, it will last a while.

Doug

 

[Gris]

Sli - I'm sure folks have already clued you in to this, but since yer a newbie here goes again. THE REALLY GOOD ALPINE SKIERS I KNOW USE ALPINE BOOTS THAT ARE SO TIGHT IT'S UNREAL, 2-3 SIZES BELOW THEIR STREET SIZE. The idea being the less play/movement between foot and boot the more directly your "instructions" get transferred to the ski and snow. Of course in alpine stuff happens fast so it's important that there be as little lag time as possible between your attempts to make corrections and the ski responding. Also before each "run" make sure your boots are buckled down really snug.

If you are not already doing this you will see a HUGE difference in your ability to manuever the skiis.

Talk to SherpaK about it. He's a former racer.

 

[sli74]

Gris,

My feet and shins are getting used to the blisters and pain from tight alpine boots slowly but surely and having a VERY patient teacher has been helping a LOT !!! Will have to talk to SherpaK about alpine skis the next time I see him !!!

sli74

 

[DougPaul]

Sli - I'm sure folks have already clued you in to this, but since yer a newbie here goes again. THE REALLY GOOD ALPINE SKIERS I KNOW USE ALPINE BOOTS THAT ARE SO TIGHT IT'S UNREAL, 2-3 SIZES BELOW THEIR STREET SIZE.

Don't try this in the backcountry--tight shoes and/or too many socks stuffed into a pair of boots not fitted with the extra socks will cut off circulation and set you up for frostbite.

I don't race and won't even do this in the front country.

(I hope racers tighten their boots just before each run and loosen them soon afterwards on cold days.)

Doug

 

[dave.m]

Sli,

I don't think you made a horrible mistake with putting system bindings on the Pavos. The Pavo is a burly xc ski but it *IS* an xc ski at heart. It has a lot of camber for its width and very little torsional rigidity at the tip and tail. So, if you put a big old boot like a plastic Excursion on that ski, you still wouldn't be able to coax turns out it easily. Don't get me wrong... The Pavo is an excellent ski and perfect for what it was designed for. Keep it on logging roads and hiking trails and you will have a blast on them.

If money is no object, you could upgrade to a higher, cuffed system boot like the Alpina Cross Terrain or Rossignol BC X7, both of which incorporate skate boot designs. That is as much boot as that ski will handle anyway.

I'm a big advocate for learning alpine to help speed up xc skiing. I'm also a big advocate of taking xc lessons and on spending peanuts on gear. If your interests are to ski in the woods (and it may not be), I would invest very little in alpine gear knowing that plastic nordic boots are in my future.

If you don't know what the end plan is, just get the alpine gear and have a ball!!

 

[sli74]

Don't know what the immediate future (through next winter) holds for me as far as skiing plans. I would like to begin skiing the catamount Trail and am hoping to make my Pavos last me a while in that quest.

I am liking this alpine skiing thing however BUT do in the somewhat more distant future want to get into telemarking SO I am thinking alpine skis this spring and then we'll see how I feel about venturing into a beefier free-heel ski by the end of winter 2006

I know VERY little about skis and made the choice of Pavos based on my use at the time . . . 2 years ago now. Before that I had a pair of Rossignol no edge skinny skis. So the Pavos were a step up.

I figure by the next 3 winters or so I will have alpine skis and telemark skis to add to my collection of skis . . . I need to win the lottery apparently

Thank you all for such great advice, this skiing newbette appreciates it

sli74

 

[Quietman]

I outfitted my kids with used rental equiptment bought on Ebay. With 5 kids + my wife, I couldn't have done it otherwise and the rental fees were killing us. I waited until March and got some great deals. Until you really get into it and get picky about performance gear, you can pick up a set of used/not abused skis and bindings for under $50. My brother is skiing on a set of Rosi Rebels ('01 model) that I bought for $4.99 + $25 shipping and he loves them and thinks that I paid over $200 . It helps that I know how to test and set bindings, but as long as the binding is fairly new, any ski shop will do this for you.
I've found a few good, reputable Ebay sellers if you're interested.

I'm taking the family back up to Black Mtn for $18 9am-9pm tickets tomorrow through Saturday. Skiing dosen't have to be expensive

 

[DougPaul]

I am liking this alpine skiing thing however BUT do in the somewhat more distant future want to get into telemarking SO I am thinking alpine skis this spring and then we'll see how I feel about venturing into a beefier free-heel ski by the end of winter 2006

Not trying to push you into tele, but you should be aware that one can do all of the alpine ski turns on tele gear. (Tele is just one turn of many--it doesn't have to be a religion.) Many people have both kinds of gear.

I know VERY little about skis and made the choice of Pavos based on my use at the time . . . 2 years ago now. Before that I had a pair of Rossignol no edge skinny skis. So the Pavos were a step up.

I figure by the next 3 winters or so I will have alpine skis and telemark skis to add to my collection of skis . . . I need to win the lottery apparently.

Thank you all for such great advice, this skiing newbette appreciates it.

We all started at the beginning and have had learning curves. Many of us have a quiver (collection) of skis that represent different points in the kinds of skiing, the technology, and our experience. There are many subtleties in ski gear and technique and it can take a while to learn and sort them out. Still working on it myself...

Doug

 

[dave.m]

I think the entire range of New England skiing can be covered with 4 rigs; 2 if you are willing to accept some trade-offs. The * denotes the 2 most versatile rigs, imo.

1) Track Skiing/Skating at Nordic Centers - Edgeless xc skis still rule here. Classic, skate or combi.

2) *Light Nordic Backcountry Touring* - XC skis with metal edges, BC capable bindings and taller boots. Keep the tip width down to 72mm or less and the skis will still work in set tracks at nordic centers. Slis Pavo and NNN-BC rig is fine for this. See the following for ski choices:
http://home.comcast.net/~pinnah/DirtbagPinner/bc-skis.html#TRAD
http://home.comcast.net/~pinnah/DirtbagPinner/bc-skis.html#COMPACTS
http://home.comcast.net/~pinnah/DirtbagPinner/bc-skis.html#OLD SCHOOL


3) *Off-Trail Turns* - Narrow Shaped Skis, Classic AT Skis or Wider Shaped skis. Pins or 3 Pin/Cable bindings. Excursion Class plastic nordic boots. This sort of rig can be pushed into moderate lift served skiing, but won't deliver high performance there. One downside is that the light gear may impeed fast learning of downhill skills. See the following for ski and boot choices:
http://home.comcast.net/~pinnah/DirtbagPinner/bc-skis.html#NARROW-SHAPED
http://home.comcast.net/~pinnah/DirtbagPinner/bc-skis.html#AT
http://home.comcast.net/~pinnah/DirtbagPinner/bc-skis.html#WIDE-SHAPED
http://home.comcast.net/~pinnah/DirtbagPinner/bc-boots.html#excursion

4) Lift Served - Standard Alpine, New DIN Releasable Alpine Touring and Heavy Telemark gear. This stuff can all be pushed into backcountry use if your goal is steep and gnarly lines. By most accounts, learning the basics of downhill skills is easier on bigger gear.

 

[sli74]

Question about Berkshire East . . .

So, I am now dragging my little sister out skiing this weekend. Since I have my swish-swoosh almost down to a science, I wanna see her fall on her a** and we are headed to Berkshire East . . .

Anyone know what the begginer trails are like there (let's say compared to Attitash)? Is there a good green trail to learn on that has a chair lift and NOT a surface lift? (I am starting to sound like I know what the heck I am talking about

Also, anyone know of any "deals" you can get for these ski areas, it gets mucho expensive after a while.

Thanks again for all the help.

sli74

 

[Quietman]

The only thing I could find is their Saturday night special. 3 for $39, 4 for $49, etc. $10 rentals.

Black Mtn in Maine is 2 for 1 ($9 each!) this Sunday. Too bad it's such a long drive.

 

[sli74]

I LOVE Black Mountain, it was my first and to date best skiing experience though I have only been skiing (alpine) 3 times, twice at Black Mountain. Wish I wasn't gonna be in Albany for the weekend, I'd head up to Black Mountain in a heartbeat

Thanks for the heads up on the Saturday night deal but we have to be back in Albany by 7 pm on Saturday so we'll just have ta pay the full price I guess.

sli74

 

[Mark_151]

Question about Berkshire East . . .

So, I am now dragging my little sister out skiing this weekend. Since I have my swish-swoosh almost down to a science, I wanna see her fall on her a** and we are headed to Berkshire East . . .

Anyone know what the begginer trails are like there (let's say compared to Attitash)? Is there a good green trail to learn on that has a chair lift and NOT a surface lift? (I am starting to sound like I know what the heck I am talking about

Also, anyone know of any "deals" you can get for these ski areas, it gets mucho expensive after a while.

Thanks again for all the help.

sli74

The Beast is a great area. I was there last Monday. Check their website at The Beast -- they have deals all the time. Monday is "Coke Day" -- $15 all day lift ticket with a Coke product! The conditions page lists the deals.

On their trail map, Roundabout is a great beginner trail from the summit and is 1.5 miles long. There's a couple flattish sections so you have to keep your momentum, know how to skate, or have skis that kick a little. Exibition is a novice cruiser served by its own quad. There's also a bunny hill with its own very shorrt double. If you get to advanced intermediate, there's a glade at that level off of Exibition, and Big Chief is a great run. Mohawk is another intermediate run and is 2 miles long. If you really want to scare the bejesus out of her, you could take her down one of the summit blacks, which are steep by any ski area standards.

Mark

 

[sli74]

Thanks for the info Mark, I really appreciate it.

Since I have only ever alpine skied 3 times in my life all in the past 6 weeks, I think we shall be sticking to the green runs so as not the scare the begesus out of myself, I have given up sitting and crying in the middle of the run

When you say the bunny hill has a double of its own . . . is there actually a lift for the bunny slope or a rope tow or T-bar or some such thing? I will probably play on the Roundabout since it looks like a ton of fun. Can't wait, hope the conditions stay favorable into April.

sli74

 

[Mark_151]

The bunny hill has its own double chair, and is an incredibly short ride. The day we were there the quad wasn't running, so the way back over to the summit chair was by taking the little double to the top of the bunny hill, which is on a traverse to the skier's right on the mountain where the summit triple is.