AMC maps now available for smart phones

[Tom_Murphy]

As The AMC moves more and more towards a digitized electronic environment they are only moving further from their roots. Yet only another example of their widely spread philosophical hypocrisies.

There are legitimate arguments against the favored status of the AMC Huts but calling them out because their trying to get a new revenue stream from their intellectual property (some very good maps) is a stretch.

 

[skiguy]

There are legitimate arguments against the favored status of the AMC Huts but calling them out because their trying to get a new revenue stream from their intellectual property (some very good maps) is a stretch.

There in lies their hypocritical nature. It's all about the money. Guess they have got to do what they need to do even if it is dichotomous to there mission ideals. Calling it intellectual property is relative if not a farce. Is the AMC not about Conservationism at it's roots? What happen to facilitating a rustic outdoor experience and outdoor education? Now rather than promoting LNT and self reliance by facilitating skills like Map and Compass they are appealing to a contingent that gets off on a digitized experience. Where in lies the intellectualism by turning on a battery powered device that could potentially fail to rely on ones well being and survival? Very slippery slope indeed. Also does everyone have a Smart Phone, a reliable computer, a broad band connection, and the money to purchase these items in addition to the software? Once again they are also aligning and appealing themselves to a narrow demographic. If not they are promoting the wrong outdoor experience IMO. What happened to unplugging and getting away from it all?

 

[B the Hiker]

There in lies their hypocritical nature. It's all about the money. Guess they have got to do what they need to do even if it is dichotomous to there mission ideals. Calling it intellectual property is relative if not a farce. Is the AMC not about Conservationism at it's roots? What happen to facilitating a rustic outdoor experience and outdoor education? Now rather than promoting LNT and self reliance by facilitating skills like Map and Compass they are appealing to a contingent that gets off on a digitized experience. Where in lies the intellectualism by turning on a battery powered device that could potentially fail to rely on ones well being and survival? Very slippery slope indeed. Also does everyone have a Smart Phone, a reliable computer, a broad band connection, and the money to purchase these items in addition to the software? Once again they are also aligning and appealing themselves to a narrow demographic. If not they are promoting the wrong outdoor experience IMO. What happened to unplugging and getting away from it all?

How does one go about contacting the moderators? I'm not even sure who they are any more.

 

[JoshandBaron]

Digital maps are more comprehensive and accurate than paper options. The USGS quads are out of date. The AMC maps lack detail and resolution and are also out of date. You can use the CalTopo app and have offline access to whatever information you could possibly want. Batteries run out eventually, carry extras just like you do with your headlamp. Use a waterproof case. Paper maps are not immune from mishap, either.

 

[peakbagger]

How does one go about contacting the moderators? I'm not even sure who they are any more.

If you happen to feel a post is inappropriate, look in the lower left hand of the post an look for the small triangle with the explanation mark and click on it to report the post.

 

[David Metsky]

How does one go about contacting the moderators? I'm not even sure who they are any more.

The same three; Tim, Alan and I.

I don't agree with skiguy's point, but he presented it civilly. There's not really anything to moderate here.

I think he completely misses the point of providing online maps for smartphone users. They're a late entry into a game that's already taken over the marketplace. Like it or not, this is what people want and how they hike. New tools and technology are always entering the outdoors and the AMC can't and shouldn't be trying to stop them. If you want to use paper maps, there's nothing stopping you. That's what I tend to use. But GPS, smartphones, and following someone else's Garmin track is here to stay. There's no benefit to ignoring the realities of the day.

 

[maineguy]

I believe that Skiguy's point is that the AMC shouldn't even be playing in that "game", late or not.

 

[DayTrip]

I believe that Skiguy's point is that the AMC shouldn't even be playing in that "game", late or not. Skiguy, please correct me if I am wrong.

But if that is his point I don't get it. The AMC has been putting out guides and maps for decades, in many cases the best around (at least until recently). They've been in this game a long time. Now that these things have gone digital why would they not continue to be a player in the next era of navigation and evolve with the available technologies?

 

[maineguy]

But if that is his point I don't get it. The AMC has been putting out guides and maps for decades, in many cases the best around (at least until recently). They've been in this game a long time. Now that these things have gone digital why would they not continue to be a player in the next era of navigation and evolve with the available technologies?

I think that a line is crossed when you start relying on (and selling) technology like this. Many hikers are SOL when their batteries or devices fail and they don't have a map/compass or know how to use them assuming they even have them. In the movie All is Lost with Robert Redford, his sailboat is damaged and his electronic navigation equipment is inoperative. So, he breaks out a sextant and starts reading the instructions on how to use it. Having studied and used celestial navigation in the Navy, I can assure you that it doesn't work that way. You need to know how to use it before you need to us it. I don't think the AMC should be encouraging this.

 

[JustJoe]

AMC used to have the online guide. Which was a yearly subscription. I thought it was an awesome tool. Not the same as what they are selling now. It was great for trip planning. Getting miles, elevation gain, time, and you could print a map of your route complete with descriptions. They shut that down a couple years ago. Maybe they miss that revenue, hence this new version of downloadable maps.

 

[skiguy]

I think that a line is crossed when you start relying on (and selling) technology like this. Many hikers are SOL when their batteries or devices fail and they don't have a map/compass or know how to use them assuming they even have them. In the movie All is Lost with Robert Redford, his sailboat is damaged and his electronic navigation equipment is inoperative. So, he breaks out a sextant and starts reading the instructions on how to use it. Having studied and used celestial navigation in the Navy, I can assure you that it doesn't work that way. You need to know how to use it before you need to us it. I don't think the AMC should be encouraging this.

Amen to that. Some how leaving the devices behind that worked with batteries was part of the experience for me beginning 50 years ago.

 

[JoshandBaron]

Amen to that. Some how leaving the devices behind that worked with batteries was part of the experience for me beginning 50 years ago.

A lot of things change in 50 years.

 

[hikerbrian]

AMC used to have the online guide. Which was a yearly subscription. I thought it was an awesome tool. Not the same as what they are selling now. It was great for trip planning. Getting miles, elevation gain, time, and you could print a map of your route complete with descriptions. They shut that down a couple years ago. Maybe they miss that revenue, hence this new version of downloadable maps.

I agree. The online guide was really good. I still don't understand why they shut it down. I imagine they weren't making enough money from subscriptions to justify upkeep. Seems like a huge missed opportunity. I've got Gaia on my phone. Can anyone tell me if/how these maps differ from Gaia? I prefer the paper/tyvek versions myself and only keep the digital versions as a backup. I do use my dedicated GPS in the winter with some regularity, but that's a different beast.

I've got a lot of really positive history with the AMC, going back 30+ years. I hate to knock the organization. And this is not solely related to the topic at hand, but there is change in the air at AMC. Change I'm not terribly psyched about. That said, I don't think these digital maps are worth spending much mental energy on. I don't care too much one way or the other, and I doubt they'll have much net impact on the hiking population, positive or negative.

 

[ChrisB]

This arrived in a John Judge / AMC email. Does it count as conservation work?


I'm writing to you to share some exciting news: this morning, President Trump signed the Great American Outdoors Act into law. The new law provides funding to help address the longstanding maintenance backlog in our public lands and it will finally, for the first time in 55 years, fully and permanently fund the Land and Water Conservation Fund (LWCF), providing $900 million annually for outdoor recreation and conservation projects.

In nearly every county across the U.S. and in some of the country’s most iconic and beloved outdoor places, LWCF has protected, enhanced, and expanded our public lands. For decades, AMC has fought for permanent reauthorization and full and permanent funding of LWCF. AMC has been honored to lead the national LWCF Coalition, through which we've helped to organize more than 1,000 outdoor organizations, businesses, and other stakeholders to advocate for the program.

It’s been an exhaustive and collective effort by AMC members, volunteers, and supporters who have lobbied their legislators, made gifts, led educational hikes and events, and much more. This outcome is a testament to the power of our community.


Valid or not?

 

[JustJoe]

I agree. The online guide was really good. I still don't understand why they shut it down. I imagine they weren't making enough money from subscriptions to justify upkeep. Seems like a huge missed opportunity. I've got Gaia on my phone. Can anyone tell me if/how these maps differ from Gaia?

I have GAIA as well and CalTopo. I rarely use either on my phone when hiking. Mostly if I'm somewhere I have no printed map. Although I print one using CalTopo. The biggest difference I've found is both Gaia and CalTopo will show trails where there are known on the AMC maps. Sometimes there are actual trails. Sometimes I've seen nothing where one of the 2 says there is a trail. Example: AMC southern guide does not show any trail from the summit (high point) of Crotched, to the ski area summit. Both Gaia and CalTopo do. In some cases it may be because a trail may be on private land. That's just a guess. In the case of Crotched though, there is a couple well defined trails to the ski area with no private or restricted area signage. Just more views.

 

[Tom_Murphy]

There in lies their hypocritical nature. It's all about the money. Guess they have got to do what they need to do even if it is dichotomous to there mission ideals. Calling it intellectual property is relative if not a farce. Is the AMC not about Conservationism at it's roots? What happen to facilitating a rustic outdoor experience and outdoor education? Now rather than promoting LNT and self reliance by facilitating skills like Map and Compass they are appealing to a contingent that gets off on a digitized experience. Where in lies the intellectualism by turning on a battery powered device that could potentially fail to rely on ones well being and survival? Very slippery slope indeed. Also does everyone have a Smart Phone, a reliable computer, a broad band connection, and the money to purchase these items in addition to the software? Once again they are also aligning and appealing themselves to a narrow demographic. If not they are promoting the wrong outdoor experience IMO. What happened to unplugging and getting away from it all?

Yes, cell phone apps are not reliable, can be misused, and are not a substitute for map and compass skills

Making maps available via cell phone apps is not in conflict with Conservationism nor LNT. Loading a map on your phone does not automatically places you in the "contingent that gets off on a digitized experience".

I was not aware that one of AMC objectives is intellectualism; are you sure about that? Quote the opposite, my experience is that AMC promotes both an intellectual and an emotional response to nature.

As to self reliance, I do not perceive selling maps for phone apps as advocating a reliance on cell phones. Facilitating, yes, but advocating, no. If the AMC refused to make their maps available for that reason, it would be a foolish consistency.

I also disagree with your implication that enjoying nature requires being unplugged. Most of us here probably enjoy nature in that manner, myself included, it but that isn't the only way. Land of Many Uses, HYOH, etc.

I think you show the crux of your legitimate issue with the AMC when you suggest that the more affluent population are more likely to be able to afford to purchase this product; similar to the Huts and the Highland Center. Again, I don't think the map thing is another strong supporting example of that concern.

 

[psmart]

WODC is also planning an electronic version of their new Sandwich Range map. Like the new AMC maps it will be a geo-referenced PDF that can be viewed with Avenza. The big advantage of this format is that it can be used offline, with your GPS position shown on the map in real-time. Although I will always love my overflowing draw of paper maps, I also appreciate the advantages of having a map on my phone for a spur-of-the-moment hike. It sure beats taking a photo of the trailhead map with your phone, a solution that I see far too often!

 

[DayTrip]

I have GAIA as well and CalTopo. I rarely use either on my phone when hiking. Mostly if I'm somewhere I have no printed map. Although I print one using CalTopo. The biggest difference I've found is both Gaia and CalTopo will show trails where there are known on the AMC maps. Sometimes there are actual trails. Sometimes I've seen nothing where one of the 2 says there is a trail. Example: AMC southern guide does not show any trail from the summit (high point) of Crotched, to the ski area summit. Both Gaia and CalTopo do. In some cases it may be because a trail may be on private land. That's just a guess. In the case of Crotched though, there is a couple well defined trails to the ski area with no private or restricted area signage. Just more views.

I'm not positive, but I believe those are people's GPS tracks that get added. There is a guy on the ADK High Peaks Forums who is a seriously hard core map layer guy and I have seen mention of this there. I've noticed "discrepancies" like that too on CalTopo and he always had a detailed explanation of what was going on. Over my head. I like CalTopo for printing zoomed in, detailed maps with more resolution that I can doodle notes and stuff on that I'll usually stuff in a sheet protector in my pocket.