Atomic Rainiers at STP

[TomD]

I just picked up a pair of Atomic Rainiers at STP for a shade under $55 with the Google $10 discount. They only have 170s. I figure at 5'10 and 140 (165 with a pack) I can't go too far wrong for some light touring and mild downhill tele skiing. I've been reading everything I can and these came recommended to me. I figured the size was about right based on YL's thread and the responses he got. I ski on 160 alpine skis. I know there's a difference, but long skis are hard for me to turn. BTW, I'm changing over from showshoes so anything faster than them is an improvement.

I know boots and binding are next. I'm getting a pair of used Crispis in a few days-overkill for light touring I'm sure, but it's trial and error for me so I don't mind. I'd love to have a release binding, since I'm sure I will be falling a lot and would really hate to tear up my knees.

Any thoughts? I know it's kind of after the fact, but I'm not exactly out a bunch of dough and really, I don't have a clue anyway.

 

[David Metsky]

That's a great price on a fine ski. They aren't really an on-piste ski although they will do in a pinch. Releasable bindings would be overkill in my opinion; they'll add too much weight and make them less appealing as a backcountry ski which is what they are designed for. Same with the boots, how big Crispis are you looking at? These skis are great for something on the order of the Garmont Excusion and Voile Cable 3-pin bindings.

What do you plan on doing with these skis? Where do you expect to be falling a lot? If you are taking them on ski lifts that's a whole different range of gear then if you are going to be in the backcountry.

-dave-

 

[rdl]

Here's a link to a discussion on the Ranier's on telemarktalk.com:

link

 

[TomD]

RDL, thanks for the link.
Dave-the Crispis are CX 2s. I plan to just be doing some moderate backcountry and trail skiing-probably trails mostly, like around Yosemite for a start. I have been looking for a pair of Excursions, but they are hard to find used and I don't want to get new ones.

I'll look for a stiffer downhill ski if I decide to do more of that. As far as falling, I tried the skinny track skis once last winter and fell a few times. Would just a plain Voile 3 pin be a good choice or should I look for a hardwire or cable binding? Again, I may be overestimating the terrain I will be on, but I would also like to try some on piste tele skiing at my local slope. I alpine ski a bit too, so maybe I'll stick to that and save these for the trail runs.

 

[David Metsky]

I think Hardwires would be overkill for these skis. They are light backcountry touring skis with the ability to turn. For touring and some easy turns all you want is a basic 3-pin setup, optionally with the removable cables. I think the cables are good to have, but really aren't needed for the uphill and touring portions of your skiing. They just add weight and resistence to each kick/glide. Big, beefy cable bindings (like the Hardwires) wouldn't be a good match for the touring you describe.

You will fall from time to time, but those falls aren't likely to be ones where a releaseable binding comes into play. Releaseables are great when on stiffer, higher boots and at higher speeds, especially in the trees or bumps. For touring, they add more weight without much benefit. These skis are wider and more stable than the skiny skis you used previously, and the boots offer much more support. Of course, you'll probably be tackling more difficult terrain...

You can do turns on the Rainer, it's pretty much the same dimensions as the Outtabounds that has been discussed here. It's a bit light for serious turns on steeps or in the trees but a very capable all around backcountry ski. On Piste they will enable you to have fun on green and some blue runs. If you are used to alpine gear, trying them on anything more serious will be disappointing I'm afraid. At that point you'll want to get some beefier gear.

-dave-

 

[TomD]

Thanks Dave, I'm pretty much a low intermediate skier and I still fall a fair amount on steeper runs, especially if I am tired. Not sure what you mean by disappointing. If I get to the bottom of a run and haven't fallen, I'm pretty happy. I don't expect the Rainiers to be much more than a learning ski for me so if I can ski a few trails, get down a moderate slope and make a few tele turns, I'll be thrilled. As you can see, I have pretty low expectations.

I hope to get up to Mammoth this winter since I'm in CA and have a friend there, so I should be able to try out some of the more macho gear from one of the rental houses, plus they have some tele instructors and a lot of backcountry trails.

I'm thinking I'll start looking for a Voile cable binding for these. I may also wind up with a lighter boot if I can find a pair cheap.

 

[DougPaul]

I'd love to have a release binding, since I'm sure I will be falling a lot and would really hate to tear up my knees.

A Telemark Skiing injury study shows only a small reduction of injuries due to using releasable bindings. http://faculty.washington.edu/mtuggy/telepag1.htm Most tele skiers don't seem to use them.

I have some, but have never mounted them. If I were skiing gates or a lot of trees, I'd probably use them.

Doug

 

[TomD]

STP sold out of the Rainiers pretty quickly, which at that price doesn't surprise me. I bet a few pair show up on eBay soon. I'm going to look for bindings now-probably Voile cables or maybe Rottefellas-3 pin of some kind. I think I will take Dave's advice and skip the hardwires until I get a beefier ski.

 

[Andrew]

Tom,
Great choice of ski for exactly what you want to do. Dave is right-on with his recommendations. I weigh 15 lbs more than you with same height, and ski on the 190 Rainiers, but I've been pushing my limits lately with skinnier and longer skis. The 3-pin cable set up is incredibly versatile and has the benefit of 2 methods of binding if a malfunction happens with one aspect. You will certainly enjoy the ease of climbing and added touring/ hiking ease when using just pins. I consider my skiis as sliding snowshoes and have fought through much brush and climbed precarious steep slopes on the waxless Rainiers. I would prefer a leather boot, and they seem to often have super cheap ones at STP website (not paper catalog) buried in one of the departments. You can feel the texture of the snow and the pressure in your turning to have more of a natural feeling of hiking in a flexing leather boot. I think the more flexibility that you start with lower on your legs in your binding set-up, the less need thier is for a releasable binding. I can't tell you how many times I've wound-up twisted up in the snow and trees with my skiis spun around my toes helicopter like. Of course this will result with less downhill control, but that's why you will become a better skier.

 

[Nor'Easter]

Atomic skis

hey gang!

N'E here.

It's nice to be back! It's been a long time since my last visit and a really, REALLY long time before that-- going back to the days of the old, original format VFTT site when I was a regular.

This chatter about the Rainiers has helped me quite a lot. I have a pair of these skis and they have gotten minimal use since I got them a few years ago. I have way, way more experience on my long/skinnies, and my tele turn is still in its infancy. The Rainiers seemed to have the goods to take me where I've wanted to go: easy rolling terrain to start-- bigger, through-the-woods type terrain later.

I'm a two hundred-pound six-footer and my skis are the 190s. I have Karhu rat trap-style, three-pin bindings on the skis and my buddy who'll be walking me through the learning process is concerned that wing-out is imminent on the steeper hills with these bindings.

My question to the distinguished panel is this: Should I be skiing with a pair of risers (don't know if they're really called that) under the bindings to help avoid the old "utterly-squashed-midslope-by-the-very-hand-of-God" problem that wing-out can create? My buddy/teacher is an old alpine skiing sharpie, so I don't know if his concern is based in reality or speculation.

Thanks kids.

N'E

 

[TomD]

N'E, you may want to wander over to Telemarktips.com and ask over there. It's mostly hardcore tele skiers, but there are some BC skiers as well, so one of them may know the answer. If you go to TT and search for old threads, you will find some very useful discussions on bindings, skis, boots and bits and pieces like risers and all that technical stuff.

 

[dave.m]

I'd love to have a release binding, since I'm sure I will be falling a lot and would really hate to tear up my knees.

Any thoughts? I know it's kind of after the fact, but I'm not exactly out a bunch of dough and really, I don't have a clue anyway.

TomD,

Here is a link to my (outdated) write up on this type of ski.
http://home.comcast.net/~pinnah/DirtbagPinner/bc-skis.html#NARROW-SHAPED

I got a pair of similar Fischers last year so I've been able to rack some limited time on them. Nothing that would change what I've written on them yet though. Very nice turning skis and better tourers than I would have thought.

Regarding releasables, I think this is largely an issue with boot stiffness and speed. The higher and stiffer the boot and faster you ski, the more chance of injury. With lower leather boots, its pretty rare. With T1 skiing lift served, I use release plates. With Excursion class plastics... you're in that in between place. I go with out due to weight.

Lastly, the choice of boot and binding (and ultimately, ski) is all about where you want to ski. If you want to ski lifts of to make turns in rough bc, you need heavy tele gear. Or, if you know how to alpine, consider AT gear.

If you're more interested in less rugged pursuits, here are my suggestions for combos that go together:
http://home.comcast.net/~pinnah/DirtbagPinner/quick-picks.html

 

[dave.m]

I have Karhu rat trap-style, three-pin bindings on the skis and my buddy who'll be walking me through the learning process is concerned that wing-out is imminent on the steeper hills with these bindings.

I wouldn't worry about it until it presents itself as a recurring problem. Of the 5 pair of metal edged skis that I have that get regular use, 2 don't have risers, 2 have risers and 1 has a riser built into the release mechanism. But, my risers are hand made double mounted risers which screw into the ski and then the binding attaches to the riser separately. Mostly I do this for the more secure 5 point attachment to the ski instead of the standard 3 screw pattern to avoid binding tear out with light plastic boots.

I have experienced wing out. You crash. No biggie. I crash all the time. Mostly it happens on me on steeper hard packed slopes when I'm using narrower skis. If you have Raniers with paterns on the bottom and if you plan on skiing at lifts a lot, my suggestion would be to get some $25 beater alpine skis and mount them up with risers and perhaps a releasable binding. In this case, the riser will help prevent the wing-out problem (should you get good enough to get that inner ski that far on edge).

If you plan on using the Raniers in the bc with plastic boots, you might consider double mount risers for a more secure mounting pattern. But, its not a big deal either way, imo.

 

[Nor'Easter]

Tons of answers...

Dave M.

Well, you pretty much nailed all of it! Thanks, Smart Guy.

I don't have any ideas about skiing at the resorts. To me, skiing should be free, as long as you don't mind earning your turn! Woo-Hoo!

Thanks.

N'E

 

[TomD]

Thanks Dave, My skis showed up today. They look a lot skinnier in person.

I will probably get a cheap pair of alpines and put hardwire CRB's or something like that on them at some point.

In the meanwhile, I'm on the lookout for a used pair of Voile cable bindings for the Rainiers. (I'm doing this on a budget.) Boots are still TBA, but the Crispis show up tomorrow.

As far as "wing-out", I take it that is the same as "boot-out"? If so, here's a good thread on that over on TT, with some sage advice from Dave in the mix.
http://tinyurl.com/e8lrp

Yipes! After reading that thread and then seeing the pic of the guy holding his ripped out binding, here-
http://tinyurl.com/jabmy
I'm afraid of ruining my poor little brand new skis by doing something stupid with them. I take it I better put shims under my bindings to prevent this happening. What size to get is the question. 20mm is about 3/4" and I'm not so sure I want to feel like I'm wearing disco shoes. Will 15mm be a more reasonable solution? I've done a few serious crash and burns on alpine gear with no damage, but I guess this is a whole new deal.

 

[DougPaul]

As far as "wing-out", I take it that is the same as "boot-out"? .

Yes.

If you lean too the ski too far over, the boot or binding hits the snow and causes you to lose your edge. The riser increases the critical angle. You can buy risers or make your own from 1/2 inch thick plastic cutting board. Only a problem on hard snow and ice.

Doug

 

[TomD]

Risers

Doug, I'm not that handy-used to be, but don't have the right tools anymore. The Voile risers are 20 mm, then there is all that stuff about wedges to avoid rocker launch which I barely understand. 20mm seems to be pretty tall. I may look around to see if anyone else makes a lower one-around 12-15mm. This all seems much more complicated than alpine bindings for some reason.

 

[dave.m]

Yipes! After reading that thread and then seeing the pic of the guy holding his ripped out binding, here-
http://tinyurl.com/jabmy
I'm afraid of ruining my poor little brand new skis by doing something stupid with them. I take it I better put shims under my bindings to prevent this happening.

TomD,

I wouldn't be too worried about ripping your bindings out. I could happen. It definitely could happen. But I would still mount plain pins on those Rainiers. In particular, I would use the Voile Mountaineer (they make 2 models of basic pins).
http://home.comcast.net/~pinnah/DirtbagPinner/bc-bindings.html

Couple of things that might be helpful....

The nordic boot binding interface is frought with breakage. Need to understand why and how to control it. With the heel not locked down, you get more freedom of movement but forces get concentrated on a smaller portion of the ski. With light, low cut floopy leather boots, this means you can take pretty decent crashes with pin bindings and you won't get hurt and neither will your skis. But as the boots get higher and stiffer, somethign in the boot/binding interface is going to give. Or your bones will. Faiilueres include: torn out pin holes, busted bindings, tearing bindings out of the ski.

One thing that contributes to binding failure are highly rockered plastic boots. When you stand on the heels, the rocker acts like a lever pushing the binding upwards. Of the plastic boots, the Scrapa T2 has been known to be the worst offender and the Crispi line of boots has been known to be the best in this regard. Crispis tend to have least amount of rocker in them.

In general, ski manufacturers tend to beef up the mounting plate in their skis in accordance with the most likely type of boot/binding that will be on top of it. They do this by adding more glass or even metal plates. Banker (in that TTips thread) was using an absolutely horrible combination. The Glittertind ski he had is just a step up from an XC track ski. Very light ski made for leather boots. I'm sure the binding plate in that ski is only lightly reinforced, if at all. And his boot was the binding killing T2.

As Metsky correctly noted, the CX-2 is more boot that commonly paired with Rainier but it's not a dramatically big mismatch. IMO, this gives you a good foundation for a 2 boot set of gear. Just as backpackers end up with 2 sleeping bags, most nordic skiers eventually end up with at least 2 different sets of boots. If they fit, the CX-2s should be keepers for you. And the Rainier is a good ski too for what it does

My suggestion would be to put plain Mountaineer pins on the Rainers. This will give you something skiable for the least cash outlay. Ski this rig whenever you get the chance in the Yosemite backcountry.

When you go to Mamoth, take your Crispis with you and rent skis. Try different bindings to develop a preferance. If I were to buy lift served bindings today, I would go with the Voile CRB Hardwire, but you will hear a zillion opinons on TTips.The CX-2s are an awsome choice for you as they are high enough that you will be able to draw from your developing alpine skills. You *can* take the Rainiers to the lifts but you will hammer the patterns at those speeds. Rent or borrow skis instead.

Next, I would suggest going to a touring center and to take at least 1 day of instruction on kick and glide and turning with straight XC skis. The wedge and step turns are the most important. Those Rainiers have XC skis in the soul and trail skiing requires a mix of control (tall stiff boots) and freedom to run (short soft boots). The more you learn about XC skiing, the more you'll feel the trade offs.

Lastly, keep your eye on eBay and look for either a lighter Excursion type plastic boot or, since you already have a plastic boot in the CX-2, a leather boot like the Karhu Descent.

Oops. Last last comment. If you do feel the need to put risers on the Rainiers, go with the G3 15 mm shim. But again, I wouldn't feel too pressed at all to do this.

HTH,

 

[DougPaul]

Dave.m's advice looks good to me.

Doug, I'm not that handy-used to be, but don't have the right tools anymore. The Voile risers are 20 mm, then there is all that stuff about wedges to avoid rocker launch which I barely understand. 20mm seems to be pretty tall. I may look around to see if anyone else makes a lower one-around 12-15mm.

All my risers (Superloop 2000 and G3 tele bindings) are 15mm. Only the heros need 20-30mm. (15mm seems enough for me...)

If the riser gets too high, then ski stability becomes a problem unless you are wearing high-stiff boots. Think platform shoes and twisted ankles. My lightweight Tele skis (67mm waist) are mounted with Voile 3-pin cable bindings with no riser. I normally use Snowfield leather boots with them--ok on powder, need more boot on NE piste. (My heavier tele skis all have risers and cable bindings.)

Traditionally, XC (incl BC) skis don't use risers, Tele skis do. (FWIW, my all-time favorite 3-pin binding is the Rottefella Super Telemark.)

(All my skis are mounted with 3-pin, 3-pin-cable, or cable bindings. Thus, except for duckbill thickness issues, I can use any of my boots (Snowfield, Sirius, T3, T2) with any of my skis. Of course, not all combos make sense--I mix and match depending on what I plan to do...)

Bootout is more of an issue for narrower skis (the sides of the boot/binding overhang the side of the ski more). The Atomic Rainier is fairly narrow (60mm waist) by modern tele standards.

Rocker launch occurs with boots with rocker (curvature of the sole) with the toe locked down. One then has to push to get the heel of the boot down on the heel piece of the binding. Typically a problem with plastic boots, not a problem with leather. The purpose of a wedge is to set the toepiece of of the binding at a small angle (duckbill up) so that less force is reqired to set the heel down. The disadvantage of the wedge is that you have to flex the boot more for kick-and-glide and for the back foot in a tele turn. I've never worried about it.

There are also wedges for adjusting the cant angle. The cant angle is the angle at which your feet are angled inward or outward. This issue applies for both DH and tele skis--more of an issue with high-stiff boots. I've never worried about this either.

This all seems much more complicated than alpine bindings for some reason.

Perhaps just new and different.

Doug

 

[TomD]

Gentlemen, Thanks for your advice. Perhaps I am overthinking this whole thing-it's a bad habit. I am sure I will eventually wind up with a second pair of skis and boots if I really get into the more serious downhill stuff.

One thing I have overlooked is poles. I'm thinking of an inexpensive pair of adjustables-any recommendations?

I do appreciate you all taking the time to help out a newbie. I do the same for new hikers on another site, so I know how much time it consumes. I figure I'll get all my questions out of the way before the snow falls and everyone heads for the hills. BTW, it has been snowing in the Sierra Nevada at Mammoth and Tahoe, so winter is just around the corner. Any flurries back your way yet?