Choosing BC Skis

[skiguy]

Former, we're in complete agreement.

Although you must say them Dudes in the White Suits on those Skis were pretty kool for their time!

 

[David Metsky]

Although you must say them Dudes in the White Suits on those Skis were pretty kool for their time!

No slam on the 10th Mountain Division. Imagine what they could have accomplished if they had real gear?

 

[Brambor]

thirsty for knowledge

I still haven't heard what makes these military skis subpar to the actual Karhu 10th Mountain. Is it that the

Military skis are foam core versus the Karhu 10th Mountain skis are wood core?

Is it the sidecut ?
The white skis are: 87-71-78
The Karhu's are: 99/68/84

Is it difference between waxable and waxless base?

No slam on the 10th Mountain Division. Imagine what they could have accomplished if they had real gear?

 

[David Metsky]

The military skis are made for functionality, but not for fun. They have no snap, they are sluggish, and are heavier than they need to be. The current crop of skis can do everything better at less weight and with more ability to turn.

They're not awful skis for the price, but it's not where I would choose to save money.

 

[skiguy]

The military skis are made for functionality, but not for fun. They have no snap, they are sluggish, and are heavier than they need to be. The current crop of skis can do everything better at less weight and with more ability to turn.

They're not awful skis for the price, but it's not where I would choose to save money.

Absolutely agree in addition to the lack of sidecut.

 

[brushhog]

BC Skis

I purchased a new BC set up this season and so far they are living up to expectations. Using a Rossi BC90 with a Rotefella 3 pin "telemark" binding and the Rossi XC11 boot. The setup work very well and if I need extra traction in steeper terrain I have a pr of BD Glidelite Kicker skins. I had been using K2/G3/scarpa boot setup before and needed to go lighter in weight, I'm glad I made the choice.

 

[Brambor]

Waxing a single camber ski

I'm wondering if I could get an input about waxing a single cambered ski. A couple of weeks ago I purchased unused Karhu Catamounts that I intended to use in deep untracked snow. The skis are shorter for my build and therefore I thought they would be used by my wife or by my son. I intend to put Voile Mountaineer 3 pin binding on them. The skis have a waxable base.

My question is what to do when trying to apply wax to these skis when I primarily intend to use them for touring?

 

[DougPaul]

I'm wondering if I could get an input about waxing a single cambered ski. A couple of weeks ago I purchased unused Karhu Catamounts that I intended to use in deep untracked snow. The skis are shorter for my build and therefore I thought they would be used by my wife or by my son. I intend to put Voile Mountaineer 3 pin binding on them. The skis have a waxable base.

My question is what to do when trying to apply wax to these skis when I primarily intend to use them for touring?

Grip waxes will both grip and glide.

Thus you can simply wax them as you would any waxable BC ski using, for instance, the Swix Vxx waxes. Since the skis only have a single camber, the wax in the "kicker" zone will stay on the snow when gliding and will wear faster than it would on a double camber or camber-and-a-half ski.

Since the entire ski will be on the snow at all times, I tend to use a single wax for the entire ski for BC skiing. The also has the advantage that you will have grip wax on the tips and tails for those moments when you are bridging a dip or stream. If I am using the skis on a groomed trail, I might use different grip (softer Vxx) and glide (harder Vxx) waxes.

FWIW, this is pretty much how I wax my camber-and-a-half BC skis too... (Just because a ski has a second camber (wax pocket) doesn't mean you have to wax it differently than the rest of the ski.)

Doug

 

[skiguy]

I'm wondering if I could get an input about waxing a single cambered ski. A couple of weeks ago I purchased unused Karhu Catamounts that I intended to use in deep untracked snow. The skis are shorter for my build and therefore I thought they would be used by my wife or by my son. I intend to put Voile Mountaineer 3 pin binding on them. The skis have a waxable base.

My question is what to do when trying to apply wax to these skis when I primarily intend to use them for touring?

The Karhu Catamount is a DOUBLE CAMBER Ski. It came in three sizes. 165,175and 185. It was part of Karhu's compact sizing method. There is some pretty good flexiblility as far as sizing if you are somewhere between the sizing on the weight charts. I've run both the 165cm and the 175cm at 175lbs. with success even though Karhu puts me in the 175. These are great all around skis for tromping around in the woods. I probably would not use them in a downhill area or in a groomed XC area as they are really middle of the road woods skis IMO. Great for busting out a trail or some turning on moderate terrain. Although I see the merits of Doug's above waxing theme for the situation he mentions; I would personally prefer a glide wax on tips and tails for better glide performance with a kick wax in the secoundary camber zone for grip considering they are Double and not single cambered.

 

[Brambor]

Looks like mine are 160

Brand new, never skied and never drilled. I think they would be good for other members in our family.

The Karhu Catamount is a DOUBLE CAMBER Ski. It came in three sizes. 165,175and 185. It was part of Karhu's compact sizing method. There is some pretty good flexiblility as far as sizing if you are somewhere between the sizing on the weight charts. I've run both the 165cm and the 175cm at 175lbs. with success even though Karhu puts me in the 175. These are great all around skis for tromping around in the woods. I probably would not use them in a downhill area or in a groomed XC area as they are really middle of the road woods skis IMO. Great for busting out a trail or some turning on moderate terrain. Although I see the merits of Doug's above waxing theme for the situation he mentions; I would personally prefer a glide wax on tips and tails for better glide performance with a kick wax in the secoundary camber zone for grip considering they are Double and not single cambered.

 

[DougPaul]

Although I see the merits of Doug's above waxing theme for the situation he mentions; I would personally prefer a glide wax on tips and tails for better glide performance with a kick wax in the secondary camber zone for grip considering they are Double and not single cambered.

However, the premise of the original question was for a single camber ski.

Take your choice:
* Single grip wax on entire ski
- more grip
- consistent grip on uneven snow
- works well on soft snow
- less glide
- IMO best for single camber ski or BC
* Separate grip (center) and glide (tip and tail) waxes
- less grip
- inconsistent grip on uneven snow
- works best on a smooth hard track
- more glide
- IMO best for double camber ski on a groomed surface

Remember too that the design of the secondary camber assumes a hard flat snow surface. (Think of the card test--you do it on a hard flat surface, not on a flat or textured rug...). A soft snow surface will allow the tip and tail to sink and can thus press snow against the kick zone (camber) when gliding. And, of course, the kick zone will press on the snow when going over even a small bump and will be unable to contact the snow when going over a dip.

A trad racer can kick with a downward force of several times his body weight and can therefore flatten the secondary camber (of a properly fitted ski) while kicking on hard snow*. (Gliding generally occurs with .5 to 1 times body weight.) Backcounty skiers generally end up kicking with far less force (often only ~1x body weight while slogging up a hill) often on soft snow* and are less able to flatten a secondary camber. (BC skis generally have a softer camber and/or a smaller camber (eg camber-and-a-half) than racing skis to account for the different environments.)

* The hardness of the snow limits the forces that flatten a ski.

And, of course, a single camber ski has no secondary camber and the "kick zone" will always be pressed against the snow.

Each waxing scheme has advantages and disadvantages depending on the ski, the skier, the snow, and the terrain. Both schemes work in a range of conditions--take your choice. Or give both a try to see which you like best...

Doug

 

[skiguy]

However, the premise of the original question was for a single camber ski.

Take your choice:
* Single grip wax on entire ski
- more grip
- consistent grip on uneven snow
- works well on soft snow
- less glide
- IMO best for single camber ski or BC
* Separate grip (center) and glide (tip and tail) waxes
- less grip
- inconsistent grip on uneven snow
- works best on a smooth hard track
- more glide
- IMO best for double camber ski on a groomed surface

Remember too that the design of the secondary camber assumes a hard flat snow surface. (Think of the card test--you do it on a hard flat surface, not on a flat or textured rug...). A soft snow surface will allow the tip and tail to sink and can thus press snow against the kick zone (camber) when gliding. And, of course, the kick zone will press on the snow when going over even a small bump and will be unable to contact the snow when going over a dip.

A trad racer can kick with a downward force of several times his body weight and can therefore flatten the secondary camber (of a properly fitted ski) while kicking on hard snow*. (Gliding generally occurs with .5 to 1 times body weight.) Backcounty skiers generally end up kicking with far less force (often only ~1x body weight while slogging up a hill) often on soft snow* and are less able to flatten a secondary camber. (BC skis generally have a softer camber and/or a smaller camber (eg camber-and-a-half) than racing skis to account for the different environments.)

* The hardness of the snow limits the forces that flatten a ski.

And, of course, a single camber ski has no secondary camber and the "kick zone" will always be pressed against the snow.

Each waxing scheme has advantages and disadvantages depending on the ski, the skier, the snow, and the terrain. Both schemes work in a range of conditions--take your choice. Or give both a try to see which you like best...

Doug

Excellent summary...We knew we could count on you!

 

[DougPaul]

Excellent summary...We knew we could count on you!

Not only do I summarize, I practice what I preach:

Just back from 10.7mi and 1570 vert ft today in the BC. Camber-and-a-half skis (Tua Escape). Single wax (blue extra)*. Good grip and glide in the BC, but perhaps a bit slow on the final part on a groomed trail. (However, I don't know whether the slowness was due to the the hard, flat surface or the change in the snow crystal structure from grooming. It wasn't worth the time and effort to rewax to see if I could improve the glide.)

* Except for where I used skins (the majority of the uphill climb)--great grip, limited glide.

Doug

 

[Brambor]

revelation

Thanks to all for keeping this thread lively and informative. I really relish the opportunity to soak in all this information. Thanks also for your patience when I ultimately blunder and spread misinformation like for example calling the Catamounts a single camber ski.

I spent a good part of the day yesterday getting tons of information about telemarking equipment and waxing. It was a great fun. We also went over the various telemark bindings and the cables that lock your heel in place. Which brings me to a question:

If I lock the heel in in place with the cables ... I will then no longer be able to do a telemark turn and instead so some kind of regular alpine turn?

 

[skiguy]

If I lock the heel in in place with the cables ... I will then no longer be able to do a telemark turn and instead so some kind of regular alpine turn?

That would be correct.

 

[Brambor]

eureka

That is funny. I never even considered this to be possible with telemark bindings. For some reason I assumed that in order to use 3-pin equipment I would have to learn a telemark turn. I do not object to learning a telemark turn at all but this sure makes me more confident to take these skis down hill because I can ski.

Why then are there some telemark ski's and bindings that seem to be mainly used at downhill ski resots when they could use Alpine skis instead? If we eliminate the telemark turn and the desire to climb uphill what other pleasure is there in using the tele skis over alpine skis?

 

[skiguy]

That is funny. I never even considered this to be possible with telemark bindings. For some reason I assumed that in order to use 3-pin equipment I would have to learn a telemark turn. I do not object to learning a telemark turn at all but this sure makes me more confident to take these skis down hill because I can ski.

Why then are there some telemark ski's and bindings that seem to be mainly used at downhill ski resots when they could use Alpine skis instead? If we eliminate the telemark turn and the desire to climb uphill what other pleasure is there in using the tele skis over alpine skis?

If your original question was regarding the Vintage "Bear Trap" binding that was what my response was in reference to your question.

 

[Brambor]

the original question

was about regular 'current' voile 3 pin bindings with cables. If they lock the heel in place - does it mean they lock it from going side ways and not from lifting? Or does it mean the lift is also locked with the cable?

Gosh, I really got to get some 3 pin boots and try the stuff before I make a fool of myself asking stupid quesitons

I will try to make it to a telemark demo day soon.

 

[skiguy]

was about regular 'current' voile 3 pin bindings with cables. If they lock the heel in place - does it mean they lock it from going side ways and not from lifting? Or does it mean the lift is also locked with the cable?

Gosh, I really got to get some 3 pin boots and try the stuff before I make a fool of myself asking stupid quesitons

I will try to make it to a telemark demo day soon.

Voile 3 pin bindings donot have the capability of locking the heel down. They are entirely freeheel. The cables are for lateral stabilty only. Some manufacturers like G2 and Black Diamond offer a carteridge style binding which is a combination of a cable with an expanding and contracting carteridge usually midway or so along the cable. These carteridges are available in different stiffnesses there for controlling the flexibility of the cable system and inturn changing the amount of force to flex the cable.

http://www.genuineguidegear.com/gear/bindings/targa

 

[Brambor]

ok. got it.

back to square one of making the learning the telemark turn a priority once I get outfitted.