Definition of Water Ice

[lx93]

Perusing over the different makes/models of crampons, I'm learning an entirely different language. (The need for crampons has already been VERY well established thru experience, no need to convince me there).

One of these terms is "Water Ice." How is "Water Ice" different from just plain old Acme-brand regular ice?

 

[DougPaul]

Ice can form by a variety of processes.
* Water ice (hard water ice) is liquid water that has frozen. The water may have been flowing slowly, so it can range from horizontal to vertical. It contains no air. (This is what you get in your ice cube trays.)
* You can also have ice that is frozen snow (alpine ice, ice crusts). The snow could have become wet from heat or external sources and then frozen. This ice contains some air.
* Glacial ice is formed from compressed snow. As more snow piles on top, the ice gets compressed more and more. Heat, water, and refreezing can also be factors. Also contains air (less the deeper you go).

In New England, we deal primarily with water ice, ice crusts, and maybe a bit of alpine ice.

Doug

 

[weatherman]

When I lived near Philadelphia, it was that frozen stuff you buy in the summer that comes in little paper cups with different flavorings, that you eat with the little wooden spoon that comes with it. You don't need crampons or even Stabilicers. Of course, the first word was pronounced "wooder" in those parts also. Many times on summer hikes, I want some.

 

[lx93]

Thanx for both the serious definition and the humorous one- I think we all could use both.

But I still like the ice down here most of all, the kind that usually only lasts a day or 2, just long enough to remind you that not everything was better up North.

 

[Lawn Sale]

To expound on what Doug said, you can also have different grades of ice. Ice can assume many properties, both at the surface and internally, and knowing how to read it can mean the difference between success and failure, or worse. This year was terrible for climbing, the ice would shatter at the surface, but on Cannon it was "hero" ice, where anyone would look good climbing it and the crampons went in full length. To my knowldge there isn't a chart on the ice grades, but rather it's something that's learned from others and just getting out.

 

[lx93]

Lawn,

By "knowing how to read it", I'm guessing, how solid ice is, whether or not there's air in it? Are there other signs one can look for?

My shoulder would be feeling a lot better right now if I knew some of these signs!

 

[DougPaul]

By "knowing how to read it", I'm guessing, how solid ice is, whether or not there's air in it? Are there other signs one can look for?

Water ice tends to look somewhat clear, ice with air in it tends to be opaque.

Warm, wet ice tends to be soft. It can be so soft that it might better be called hard slush... (Easy to get crampon/tool/ice screws in, but weak. It can shear suddenly.)

Water ice at cold temps becomes hard water ice. So hard that crampon points barely leave nicks. Harder to place tools and ice screws. You tend to break off "dinner plates" of ice when placing tools. (The dinner plates then tend to fall on you. Ice climbers also tend wear helmets...)

If water ice contains a lot of dirt and grit, it can become very hard. Think of the ice as glue holding the rock particles together...

Ice also can pick up colors from impurities in the water.

You can't always tell the detailed characteristics of water ice by looking at it--an ice climber may try several spots and try to use ice that looks like the best. (Or if you don't like what you are on, try something different.) A hiker can just probe the ice with an ice axe spike to see what it is like. You can also feel a good bit through your crampons.

It is usually easier to place tools and crampon points in ice with significant amounts of air. (Less brittle than cold water ice.) Think of a suface crust that crampon points penetrate, but does not break under your weight. Or think of hard snow. Either can be very secure and easier to travel than in summer.

And of course, the ice/snow can have layers of various types or can change significantly in a few feet.

The above might sound complicated, but it is pretty easy for a hiker. The details only tend to get complicated for ice and snow climbers.

Doug

 

[linehant]

lx,

Were you inquiring just to get a definition of water ice, or are you looking for information and commentary about what sort of crampon is best suited to various types of winter terrain?

 

[giggy]

http://www.iceclimb.com/science.html

 

[Jazzbo]

I'm still a greenhorn, but I've always thought of water ice as the ice that develops on a trail where water drains or runs down from precipitation, melting, or ground water seeping out and as it seeps or runs it freezes. In some places this happens more less continously and develops into thick globs or accumulations that appear to bulge out or over the slope. They might appear green or bluish. Sometimes it's limited to small spots that you can bushwhack around or maybe the water ice is longer. The steeper and longer they get the more technical they get. Technical meaning you should have some traction, special gear, and or training. This is as opposed to hard packed snow or just plain snow or maybe just 1-2 inch ice. If I saw a lot of 1-2 inch ice on a trail I would describe the trail as just plain icy, but if I saw the globular stuff I might use the term water ice to describe it.

 

[lx93]

Linehant,

I was just asking for clarification on what water ice means, and I thank everyone who has answered that call.

But, I'm always open ears on advice on crampons, too, though that's probably another thread, and I'll wait until I have specific questions on that barrel of monkeys. Suffice to say that the Black Diamond strap-on crampons which I tried on my Asolo 520's kept on coming off about 2 minutes after I'd put them on, so something wasn't being done right, quite possibly by me, as I was solo hiking at the time and wouldn't have known if I was putting them on correctly.

 

[bill bowden]

Water ice and hiking

For White Mountain hikers this was an icy winter. Instead of snow accumulation on trails we had a lot of snow fall, melt and refreeze into very hard clear ice. This stuff is hard to get traction on, stabilicers, instep crampons and 6 point crampons all work sort of Ok on flat ground but rapidly lose utility as the grade steepens. Even comparatively dulled 10 and 12 point crampons served poorly.
This is the sort of stuff that ice climbers ascend.
In better years "ice" in deep winter on trails has much more of the nature of compressed snow or above treeline wind driven snow that has partly refrozen. Hoping a more knowledgeable person will help me out there is a French term "nieve" (sp?) that describes such half ice/ half snow combination. Instep crampons,etc work well on it at low angles and full crampons work beautifully even at pretty high angles. this is the classic mountaineering stuff for ice axe arrests, etc.

 

[linehant]

the Black Diamond strap-on crampons which I tried on my Asolo 520's kept on coming off about 2 minutes after I'd put them on

BD strap? Is that the Contact Strap?

 

[DougPaul]

Hoping a more knowledgeable person will help me out there is a French term "nieve" (sp?) that describes such half ice/ half snow combination..

"Firn snow, or neve, is summer snow which has survived at least a year."
Yvon Chouinard, in "Climbing Ice".

Not really an issue in the NE...

I just call packed snow, packed snow. or hardpack.

The word "neve", should be written with accent marks above both "e"s. (Too lazy to figure out how to input those 8-bit characters...)

Doug

 

[lx93]

Linehant,

Sorry for the delay in replying, I'm spending some time w/ my parents before going overseas for a year & don't have web access where they live (posting right now from the local library).

The pic in the link you posted certainly looks like them, but I can't be certain that it was them.

I think that chances are 75% that I may have been putting them on wrong. I was solo hiking- not by preference, just a reflection of the reality that getting a hiking partner for a peak in Maine during the week is a bit of a challenge.

 

[linehant]

lx,

BD customer support is very good. If you e-mail them and tell them about the problem you're experiencing, they might be able to send you some suggestions or a "user's manual".

FWIW, I have a charlet moser strap crampon. The toe yoke is a bit different, but the overall strap set-up is similar and works very well. You should be able to get the "kinks" worked out.

Have fun in Europe. And don't forget to take your crampons; plenty of places to use them over there.