Do you think it's safe ?

[SAR-EMT40]

They say “no problem”, but you don't know them much (just from vftt )Are you going anyway? Do you think it's safe ?

"No problem" What the hell does that mean? Does it mean we don't really care? If you fall behind that is your problem. Or does it mean. We will turn this entire show around if you can't make it?

“No problem” isn't an answer. You need to know what it is they are willing to do to help if you get in over your head. You can ask the question. It worries me already that they didn't start asking you questions about your capabilities. I know you said you told them but they should be asking questions and want to know specifically, what kind of assistance you might need. Will gentle verbal prodding be enough to get you wherever you are going, being short roped? Most importantly, who will be keeping an eye on you? I mean someone by name. Does he or she know that they are going to be responsible? If they do and if you cannot go on are they willing to do what is necessary to ensure your safety?

If they aren’t telling you how it will work you need to ask who will be watching or helping me. When you get that persons name check and make sure that person knows that? Talk to that person and see what they are willing to do to ensure your safety. Don’t go with “Oh we will all being keeping an eye on you”. One person should be responsible and both of you should know who that is right from the start. He/she can handle whatever interaction is needed from the group if there is a problem.

Also realize this is pointed less at you and more at the people that you are going with. They should be asking the right questions. If they don't you certainly should.

Just my $.02,
Keith

 

[forestgnome]

great discussion, and quite timely. Danger is very magnified in winter conditions. I've never hiked in a group, but I would base everything on one principle: realism

happy trails

 

[timmus]

one principle: realism

To be realistic is difficult when you don't really know what you are getting into, even if you read books, study the maps, and ask all the questions you want.

My conclusion : communication is the key, and once the door is open, trust is what will lead everyone to the summit.

I did many many trips with more experienced people, and it's true that this is how I got to learn more. I always trusted my partners. And I always had fun.

I don't think it's necessary to say either it's for a major climb out west or if it's for a three-day bushwhack in the North River Range. I think whatever is the level we're at, we all get in front of that situation at one point. I hope that thread will help others too.

Julie, I'll bet whatever the challenge, you are up for it! You've amazed me with some of your accomplishments!

Nice to hear, thanks ! But remember that my greatest hikes (according to me) I did solo... There's a reason for that : I don't trust a lot of people

 

[Bob Kittredge]

No

Not unless you know and trust some of the individuals really well.

If you were to, say, sign up for a hike with the AMC, you would be asked screening questions about your gear and experience. If they really thought you'd slow the group appreciably, you'd be politely told that you should try something less challenging first. If they did accept you, they would take care of you and commit to seeing that you got out of the woods safely, even if it meant a coleader walked you out while the rest of the group went ahead. Their leaders have gone through training and have proved their good judgment by coleading a number of hikes.

VFTT is not an organized group that makes such a commitment; it is a collection of individuals who often like to "hike their own hike". While they may say "sure" you can come, they may also say "see you at the parking lot".

I've never gone along on any VFTT group hike that I wasn't prepared to solo in the first place.

 

[the starchild]

You know you are taking a risk, and that you put everyone in a precarious situation.

hells no. stupid. stupid. stupid.

are you F'ing kidding me? is this really something that needs to be debated or asked?

to make a decision before even leaving your house that "puts everyone in a precarious postion" is super irresponsible.

i am happy i have weeded out friends like that and wouldn't accept that nor trust people who would accept that. sorry giggy!

the whole original question seems like a trip that would become fodder here as an accident report. i'd pass on the trip and find some other people or do something safer like winter solo backpacking.

pushing your limits and learning are all necessary and great and fun. putting people at risk for no reason except someone doesn't have the skillset yet......bad idea.

 

[Papa Bear]

This wasn't the original question but it is a very important follow-on situation: turning back. I've been there a few times so this is not hypothetical.

For myself, I have occasionally been with faster folk. A couple of times I have said "I don't think I'm going to make this in the time we have. I'm going back. You go ahead". In these cases the faster party went ahead since there was little or no danger in me going back alone or for them going ahead alone. After all, these were bushwhacks, not 5.8 rock climbs, and both the faster and the slower (me) were experienced whackers.

In one case on a real hot humid day, I said "I'm not up to this. I need to go back". In that case the other party went back with me. He said "Well, I can't carry you back, so let's both go back together".

That's the key. If there is a real possibility of a danger to me (or to them) - which is hard to admit especially since you're already feeling bad abouts slowing them down - you gotta speak up even if you think you will ruin their day (or embarrass yourself).

 

[sierra]

I think its valuable to learn from others and you can save yourself years of learning the hard way on your own, BUT imo, you and only you are responsible for your own ass ( different if with a guide). I would have the ability to leave and descend on your own if need be, the group may make bad decsisions and drag you into the depths of who knows where, you must have the smarts and ability to eradicate yourself if need be. another point, I know great climbers here and out west, but there are some I stopped climbing with altogether because they are willing to push the envelope farther then I am. I love to be challenged mind you, but I never put the margin of error to thin.
p.s.I know there are some who will read my post and say that leaving a group is breaking some rule, phooey, if Im climbing with you and your about to make a decision that I think is dangerous, I have and will leave the group at that point.
I guess that why Ive been soloing mostly for the last couple of years, Ive had no problems on high peaks on my own.

 

[rhihn]

I’d ask more questions. Good advice in many of these posts. Key words in your post:

BIG hike…MUCH MORE than your experience ALLOWS…RELY on others for equipment expertise…you tell them they need to KEEP AN EYE ON YOU…YOU KNOW YOU ARE TAKING A RISK, AND THAT YOU PUT EVERYONE IN A PRECARIOUS SITUATION…

They say “NO PROBLEM” but they don’t know you. I would wonder under what conditions they might say “NO.” Aren’t these strangers?

Would YOU lead someone who had proposed these conditions to YOU?

Do you KNOW their TRUE experience? Do they know YOURS?

Beyond “experience” (a truly dubious and overused term), what are these people like? Will they sacrifice the trip to help a weaker person? Or is it “Damn the torpedoes…full speed ahead!”?

Don’t listen to compliments of strangers or friends…evaluate your own strengths.

Your words: “communication is the key, and once the door is open, trust is what will lead everyone to the summit.” Sounds great, but if these are strangers, how do you know this will be the case?

Is the event such that you KNOW you could safely turn around on your own?

“But you must both be totally honest with each other.” Does their reponse of “NO PROBLEM” satisfy you as to their total honesty?

I have been on more than one trip in which a more "experienced" person sacrificed safety for the sake of getting from point A to point B in time.

 

[timmus]

Your words: “communication is the key, and once the door is open, trust is what will lead everyone to the summit.” Sounds great, but if these are strangers, how do you know this will be the case?

In other words : First you talk to them. Then you meet them for a small hike, and that opens the door.

If everything goes well on that hike, you feel you can trust them, then you go.

 

[Paradox]

I am curious about two things. Where is this place, and what activity are you considering? If it takes some special skills, then get the training first. This will help your condfidence and those who are accompanying you.

If it is just money you need, then try to borrow it from those that asked you to go. You'll find out real quick whether they really want you along or not.

 

[timmus]

I am curious about two things. Where is this place, and what activity are you considering?

This was a fictional situation to see who is into that kind of risk and who's not, nothing more.

Only once I went on a major hike (Dix Range in winter including slide climbing), with an experienced group, known through boards only. The hike was over my capabilities, I came back injured (nothing serious) and with a lesson learned.

I don't regret going. I never asked the other members of that group about it, maybe they'll say it was a mistake to bring me along. I have no idea.

 

[Neil]

Only once I went on a major hike (Dix Range in winter including slide climbing), with an experienced group, known through boards only. The hike was over my capabilities, I came back injured (nothing serious) and with a lesson learned.

You can say whatever you want but I should never have let you go down without making you use your ax. I will always remember that. That said, you were one hardcore mother of an adventuress.