nh-trekker
New member
SOUNDS LIKE JUST ANOTHER TRAIL "nATZI" TO ME !!!!!!!
KNOWLEDGE IS POWER ??? IF THEY HAVE ANY
!!!!!!!!
KNOWLEDGE IS POWER ??? IF THEY HAVE ANY
!!!!!!!!
Hiking Etiquette
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rhihn
New member
I don't know if nhmtnr's and nh-trekker's posts are responses to my post or to the thread in general, but as mine was the previous one, I'll assume it was mine. With all of the talk about snowshoes/crampons/skiis/butt-sliding and trail conditions, in a moment of silliness I just thought I would add sled tracks to the conversation. I should have made myself more clear that my post was tongue-in-cheek. I hike in winter with no "demands" whatsoever of trail conditions. As for the sledders, we were grateful that they had come before us.
Hmmm. Where do we stop? Should we all be wearing snowshoes, and after the first couple go through the next walk parallel, widening the trail instead of everyone going in the same U-shaped trough? Makes it easier for skiers.
When going up a steep section, should we all be stepping in the same kick-steps so we can have some stairs built for later in the season?
Skiers to the left, hikers to the right?
No glissading, since it smooths out the trails and makes it more slippery?
Require you always have something on your feet to avoid postholing?
When crossing small wet areas, should you be filling them with snow so we start the snowbridges earlier?
Believe it or not, these are all things I have thought of at one point while on a trail! The kicksteps make it great to go up a steep section. The widening of a trail helps skiers when trying to snowplow (almost killed myself coming down the trail yesterday on skis because the trough was too narrow and deep to ski). I've thought about the butt-sliders and noticed how they completely removed much of the snow from the trail, either by packing it down and pushing it at the bottom of the section. I even tried to complain about it on this very board....
However, to require someone to take every step in a certain manner is sure sounding Nazi-like. If you can't handle the conditions, then you should be doing your winter hiking on a sidewalk. Are we going to expect trail referees randomly handing out yellow cards for minor infractions. Red cards, fines, and bannings for greater ones? Yeah...we could put a rule in so once you get multiple infractions, you'd be banned for a week!
Sure, it would be nice if every one of you did exactly as I wished you did out there, but many of you just determined to hike your own hike.
When going up a steep section, should we all be stepping in the same kick-steps so we can have some stairs built for later in the season?
Skiers to the left, hikers to the right?
No glissading, since it smooths out the trails and makes it more slippery?
Require you always have something on your feet to avoid postholing?
When crossing small wet areas, should you be filling them with snow so we start the snowbridges earlier?
Believe it or not, these are all things I have thought of at one point while on a trail! The kicksteps make it great to go up a steep section. The widening of a trail helps skiers when trying to snowplow (almost killed myself coming down the trail yesterday on skis because the trough was too narrow and deep to ski). I've thought about the butt-sliders and noticed how they completely removed much of the snow from the trail, either by packing it down and pushing it at the bottom of the section. I even tried to complain about it on this very board....
However, to require someone to take every step in a certain manner is sure sounding Nazi-like. If you can't handle the conditions, then you should be doing your winter hiking on a sidewalk. Are we going to expect trail referees randomly handing out yellow cards for minor infractions. Red cards, fines, and bannings for greater ones? Yeah...we could put a rule in so once you get multiple infractions, you'd be banned for a week!
Sure, it would be nice if every one of you did exactly as I wished you did out there, but many of you just determined to hike your own hike.
My response was in general, not specific to rhihn, but like Dug, I am annoyed by those who have expectations of conditions upon entering to the wilderness. Or possibly that others are going to put themselves in harms way to save them from themselves.
http://www.fosters.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20060105/NEWS01/101050095/-1/NEWS03[/URL]
The attitudes of people who have a belief that it all revolves around them.
http://www.fosters.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20060105/NEWS01/101050095/-1/NEWS03[/URL]
The attitudes of people who have a belief that it all revolves around them.
bruno
New member
aiight, aiight, aiight!! i'm gonna clear up the hole (hardeeharhar!! ) posthole thing thus--the truth is, and this really is the truth--the first time YOU posthole on a hike it's funny, after that it's not funny. but it's ALWAYS funny when someone else postholes!! always! the look on their face as they go lurching down and then pitching forward is priceless! makes for great entertainment on the winter trails!!
) posthole thing thus--the truth is, and this really is the truth--the first time YOU posthole on a hike it's funny, after that it's not funny. but it's ALWAYS funny when someone else postholes!! always! the look on their face as they go lurching down and then pitching forward is priceless! makes for great entertainment on the winter trails!!While we’re at it –
Can something be done about the rain? I go track out a nice trail and come back and it’s all slush.
And what about those over night temps? I can do without the ice, thank you.
And the wind? I get tired of having to pick up and move over all those branches.
Might as well complain about that sunshine, too. The glare on the snow is too bright, so I have to put on sunglasses, and then they fog up. And it warms the snow so that it sticks to my snowshoes, and that big ball under my foot makes the trail a mess.
I mean, really, even that fresh snow covers up signs and blazes and I could get lost.
This is more fun than poles scratching rocks.
Can something be done about the rain? I go track out a nice trail and come back and it’s all slush.
And what about those over night temps? I can do without the ice, thank you.
And the wind? I get tired of having to pick up and move over all those branches.
Might as well complain about that sunshine, too. The glare on the snow is too bright, so I have to put on sunglasses, and then they fog up. And it warms the snow so that it sticks to my snowshoes, and that big ball under my foot makes the trail a mess.
I mean, really, even that fresh snow covers up signs and blazes and I could get lost.
This is more fun than poles scratching rocks.
Neil
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This was a most memerable butt slide coming off Allen. Note the track to my son's left (viewing right). That's where I hit the ice lip and bought some air. What a day that was.
Hey, nowadays we almost always have a packed trail. Talk about having it easy - post holes, butt slide or sleigh tracks notwithstanding! A mere ten years ago it was pretty routine to expect one or two feet of fresh snow on the trail, if not more. In the past year and about 18 winter peaks I've only had to break trail twice!
Hey, nowadays we almost always have a packed trail. Talk about having it easy - post holes, butt slide or sleigh tracks notwithstanding! A mere ten years ago it was pretty routine to expect one or two feet of fresh snow on the trail, if not more. In the past year and about 18 winter peaks I've only had to break trail twice!
Lawn Sale
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If you are postholing all the time, then yes, I think it would be proper etiquette to put on snowshoes. At all other times, including the occasional posthole, I think it's up to the hiker. I also think it's bad form to attempt to correct someone else when everyone hikes their own hike. There are obvious reasons for each of us wearing our own footwear on a trail, sometimes for traction, sometimes for health, and sometimes for changing conditions.
Yesterday on the Carters it would have been difficult on showshoes with all the blowdowns we had to go over/under/around, not to mention the ever changing trail conditions. We were bare booting it and occasionally postholing, but nothing regular and all were certainly unexpected. I also didn't want to use crampons as they tend to tear up your legs faster than bare-booting (as Ranger C discovered), which I feel made bare-booting the logical choice. Personally I think going down some of the steep sections in snowshoes would have been a recipe for disaster.
For someone to correct someone else on the trail for their choice of footwear is poor etiquette in my book, HYOH. Unless, of course, you are hiking or snowshoeing on an X-C ski trail, which is obviously different.
Yesterday on the Carters it would have been difficult on showshoes with all the blowdowns we had to go over/under/around, not to mention the ever changing trail conditions. We were bare booting it and occasionally postholing, but nothing regular and all were certainly unexpected. I also didn't want to use crampons as they tend to tear up your legs faster than bare-booting (as Ranger C discovered), which I feel made bare-booting the logical choice. Personally I think going down some of the steep sections in snowshoes would have been a recipe for disaster.
For someone to correct someone else on the trail for their choice of footwear is poor etiquette in my book, HYOH. Unless, of course, you are hiking or snowshoeing on an X-C ski trail, which is obviously different.
DougPaul
Well-known member
It is my understanding that personal remarks are out-of-bonds on this BBS. Debate the issues, not the people.skiguy said:
FYI, I have been winter mountaineering for 30yrs, including standing glissades, crouching glissades, sitting glissades, and self-arrest position glissades. In all cases, I try to take into account the risks and impacts of my actions.
A friend of mine got a serious gash in his leg while sitting glissading and others have reported coccyx (tail bone) injuries from sitting glissades.
Doug
snowshoe
New member
carole said:While we’re at it –
Can something be done about the rain? I go track out a nice trail and come back and it’s all slush.
And what about those over night temps? I can do without the ice, thank you.
And the wind? I get tired of having to pick up and move over all those branches.
Might as well complain about that sunshine, too. The glare on the snow is too bright, so I have to put on sunglasses, and then they fog up. And it warms the snow so that it sticks to my snowshoes, and that big ball under my foot makes the trail a mess.
I mean, really, even that fresh snow covers up signs and blazes and I could get lost.
We have no control of these situations. Postholing can be controled.
blacknblue
Active member
Before we continue with the Nazi references... Nazis killed millions of people--a little more severe than discussing hiking etiquette. Please.
I don't think anyone is suggesting that we institute rules. After all, the thread title is "Hiking Etiquette," not "Hiking Rules and Regs," suggesting that we discuss what it is that can make the experience more enjoyable for everybody; not that we start regulating everything to death.
It seems that the original poster just wanted to know what would work best for others travelling on the trails. It seems fairly agreed upon that postholing makes the trail more difficult--for the postholer as well as for those who follow.
While it is certainly understood that winter wilderness requires that one be prepared for anything, it is not unreasonable to ask that others be considerate of those with whom they share the wilderness.
I don't think anyone is suggesting that we institute rules. After all, the thread title is "Hiking Etiquette," not "Hiking Rules and Regs," suggesting that we discuss what it is that can make the experience more enjoyable for everybody; not that we start regulating everything to death.
It seems that the original poster just wanted to know what would work best for others travelling on the trails. It seems fairly agreed upon that postholing makes the trail more difficult--for the postholer as well as for those who follow.
While it is certainly understood that winter wilderness requires that one be prepared for anything, it is not unreasonable to ask that others be considerate of those with whom they share the wilderness.
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blacklab2020
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Not sure I am going to add anything significant here, but ...
I have heard of Rangers near Marcy Dam making Ice Climbers who post holed all the way to avalanche pass... go back and rake in their tracks.
Like LawnSale and others have mentioned postholes can be and become dangerous. If you dont posthole the tracks, then it shouldnt matter what you where... be comfortable.
As far as sliding is concerned... go out have fun, and be safe... glissading is great fun, but can have serious consequences depending on the terrain, your visibility ahead, and your knowledge of the terrain ahead... i consider packing down the trail the least of those worries... your snowshoes or crampons should be able to handle packed trail no problem...
~J
I have heard of Rangers near Marcy Dam making Ice Climbers who post holed all the way to avalanche pass... go back and rake in their tracks.
Like LawnSale and others have mentioned postholes can be and become dangerous. If you dont posthole the tracks, then it shouldnt matter what you where... be comfortable.
As far as sliding is concerned... go out have fun, and be safe... glissading is great fun, but can have serious consequences depending on the terrain, your visibility ahead, and your knowledge of the terrain ahead... i consider packing down the trail the least of those worries... your snowshoes or crampons should be able to handle packed trail no problem...
~J
--M.
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Kids with sleds
I was out in the local 'woods,' or what passes for the idea in our suburban neighborhood, and I came upon a sledding run that looked like a lot of fun. I imagined myself as a ten-year-old kid on a classic Flyer (with rails) ripping down the chute as if at the Olympics.
I reflexively stepped up off the track, so as not to mark it up, you know, and then started to laugh as I was reminded of this thread. I could almost hear a kid yelling at me to get off the track!
If we each broke trail every time out and never came upon another, we could answer the question in the most utilitarian manner and be done. [To wit: postholing is a pain in the everything.] But that's not how it is: we live in a big "neighborhood" and we all sled in the same "woods," and I certainly recall being educated in the etiquette of sledding by the bigger kids, and then passing it along (as gently as I could when I was being a man about it) when I was bigger.
I had a boss once, who explained mentoring as being one of the 'big kids' chasing down the ice cream truck, looking back at the littler ones, yelling "Come on! You can make it, Come on!"
I was glad to be able to get good etiquette info on this very BBS a few years ago when I first got back into winter hiking.
See ya,
--M.
I was out in the local 'woods,' or what passes for the idea in our suburban neighborhood, and I came upon a sledding run that looked like a lot of fun. I imagined myself as a ten-year-old kid on a classic Flyer (with rails) ripping down the chute as if at the Olympics.
I reflexively stepped up off the track, so as not to mark it up, you know, and then started to laugh as I was reminded of this thread. I could almost hear a kid yelling at me to get off the track!
If we each broke trail every time out and never came upon another, we could answer the question in the most utilitarian manner and be done. [To wit: postholing is a pain in the everything.] But that's not how it is: we live in a big "neighborhood" and we all sled in the same "woods," and I certainly recall being educated in the etiquette of sledding by the bigger kids, and then passing it along (as gently as I could when I was being a man about it) when I was bigger.
I had a boss once, who explained mentoring as being one of the 'big kids' chasing down the ice cream truck, looking back at the littler ones, yelling "Come on! You can make it, Come on!"
I was glad to be able to get good etiquette info on this very BBS a few years ago when I first got back into winter hiking.
See ya,
--M.
giggy
New member
Many of us get out there to get away from being told what to do and how to do it. Do what your comfy doing and have fun.
until the whites have a mandatory snowhoe rule - you are under no obligation to use them in any conditions - there will always be postholes up the mountains.
If people want "pure snowshowing conditions", then go to more remote mtn with unbroken trails.
IMO - on easy accessible mountains, your going to get the variable trail condtions. mtns like Tecumseh are going have everyone and their grandma on it.
Its like going to a hut and complaining about noise at night - take the good with the bad.
FWIW - in 2 to 3 inches, I would have done the same as you were doing. tho probably no crampons.
until the whites have a mandatory snowhoe rule - you are under no obligation to use them in any conditions - there will always be postholes up the mountains.
If people want "pure snowshowing conditions", then go to more remote mtn with unbroken trails.
IMO - on easy accessible mountains, your going to get the variable trail condtions. mtns like Tecumseh are going have everyone and their grandma on it.
Its like going to a hut and complaining about noise at night - take the good with the bad.
FWIW - in 2 to 3 inches, I would have done the same as you were doing. tho probably no crampons.
dr_wu002
Well-known member
It's winter hiking!! There's going to be trails that are in 'crappy' (read fun, oftentimes) condition because of rain, lousy snow etc. And there's going to be trails postholed, made slick by buttsliders. Makes it fun and interesting. There's plenty of places to get out in unbroken snow or packed flat trails. But to sit around and whine and complain about postholes or slick trails is pretty lame in my opinion. If you don't want to post hole, wear snow shoes. I don't even have a problem saying to someone that's postholing something like, "you know -- it's easier with snowshoes!" but if they find it easier to posthole (!?) or like to posthole so be it. I'm happy to get out and not going to let that spoil my time. I can always 'whack around it.carole said:While we’re at it –
Can something be done about the rain? I go track out a nice trail and come back and it’s all slush.
And what about those over night temps? I can do without the ice, thank you.
And the wind? I get tired of having to pick up and move over all those branches.
Might as well complain about that sunshine, too. The glare on the snow is too bright, so I have to put on sunglasses, and then they fog up. And it warms the snow so that it sticks to my snowshoes, and that big ball under my foot makes the trail a mess.
I mean, really, even that fresh snow covers up signs and blazes and I could get lost.
Nice post, Carole.
-Dr. Wu
Flatlander_SG
Member
I am sorry that someone put a gray cloud over your day......... Ginny
The intent of my post was to show that just as we have not control of the weather we really have no control of others actions. The large majority out there aren't reading VFTT and some that do aren't going to read this and change their mode of travel.snowshoe said:
giggy said:
excuse me (grandma speaking)
dr_wu002 said:
thank you
giggy
New member
carole said:excuse me (grandma speaking)
figure of speech - no harm or foul intended
Flatlander_SG
Member
I have been sitting here reading over everyone's comments and thinking back to when I first started hiking.....
My brother and I started hiking together about 10 years ago, mid 40's for me, 50 for him. We had never taken even so much as a long walk together and we chose the Lafayette, Lincoln, Haystack loop...9 miles round trip, in September, for our first hike. When I look back now at how inexperienced we were then, I cringe. The photos from that day show us dressed in cotton clothing covered from head to toe in rime ice. We had no idea what we were getting ourselves into...but we had the time of our life!
My point: We were new to the experience and didn't have a clue about "trail etiquette", we didn't even know how to dress ourselves. Since then, we have acquired the "proper" gear and clothing, piece by piece because of the expense. In my opinion, not everyone has the luxury of owning snowshoes......or whatever is considered the "appropriate" gear for the existing conditions and not everyone has the experience to know what is appropriate for the conditions.
We were lucky that no one criticized us that day, everyone we met was friendly and encouraging, no one even laughed at my partner's red Elmer Fud hat. We finished hiking the NH 48 a couple of years ago and wouldn't have missed the experience for anything. We learned as we encountered. We had no idea what a post hole was until we broke through the snow and were thigh high in mud, in shorts, in early Spring. We looked at each other and said "this must be postholing". Sounds niave? It was, but that is how we learned. We had a lot of good laughs along the way.
Anyway, that is my two cents worth....
See you on the trail, and bye the way, the Elmer Fud hat was retired.
Ginny
My brother and I started hiking together about 10 years ago, mid 40's for me, 50 for him. We had never taken even so much as a long walk together and we chose the Lafayette, Lincoln, Haystack loop...9 miles round trip, in September, for our first hike. When I look back now at how inexperienced we were then, I cringe. The photos from that day show us dressed in cotton clothing covered from head to toe in rime ice. We had no idea what we were getting ourselves into...but we had the time of our life!
My point: We were new to the experience and didn't have a clue about "trail etiquette", we didn't even know how to dress ourselves. Since then, we have acquired the "proper" gear and clothing, piece by piece because of the expense. In my opinion, not everyone has the luxury of owning snowshoes......or whatever is considered the "appropriate" gear for the existing conditions and not everyone has the experience to know what is appropriate for the conditions.
We were lucky that no one criticized us that day, everyone we met was friendly and encouraging, no one even laughed at my partner's red Elmer Fud hat. We finished hiking the NH 48 a couple of years ago and wouldn't have missed the experience for anything. We learned as we encountered. We had no idea what a post hole was until we broke through the snow and were thigh high in mud, in shorts, in early Spring. We looked at each other and said "this must be postholing". Sounds niave? It was, but that is how we learned. We had a lot of good laughs along the way.
Anyway, that is my two cents worth....
See you on the trail, and bye the way, the Elmer Fud hat was retired.
Ginny
