Huge group hike planned Franconia Ridge.

[Peakbagr]

This may be the same large meet up group staying at Barnes Field over the holiday weekend. If so, the weekend has been on their website for quite a while.
In NYS, DEC monitors their website and rangers sometimes 'greets' them at trailheads in the ADKs and Catskills when the number of signups appears to be out of scale with the hike.

 

[psmart]

They may need an "Outfitter Guide Permit" from the USFS. At a minimum, this ensures there is a discussion about the group size and ways to mitigate it's impact. A permit is required for all commercial activities, including an organization that collects any fee for the service.

 

[peakbagger]

Ouftitter Guide is generally ignored and poorly enforced in much of the whites depressingly. The pemi district used to be the exception. Basically if its a local outfitter or business, they may be asked to get one but rarely does out of the area groups even organized for profit groups get tagged. One thing I learned when applying for them years ago was that the permits can be restricted to specific areas to reduce impact. The llama bus over on 113 was restricted to 113 and the kilkennies

 

[Tom_Murphy]

Violate the 10 person rule in a Wilderness Area? no one on this site would ever do that, right?

 

[Ed'n Lauky]

Sounds like the same crowd I saw on Franconia Ridge about 4 years ago. They were seminary students, all happy young men, singing the entire time. There were about 80 of them (I asked). Apparently they do a hike every year.

Yeah, that sounds about right, although when we passed them they were split up into smaller groups (maybe 4-5 groups of 15-20 each). A seminary would make sense. They were certainly happier than I would have expected since most people in the group were hiking in dress shoes.

It seems to me that the Catholic church already has enough problems filling its posts, without sending its best and brightest down the Falling Waters trail in dress shoes.

Sounds a bit like mass suicide.

 

[dave.m]

Or Tuckermans in the spring...

 

[erugs]

Yeah, that sounds about right, although when we passed them they were split up into smaller groups (maybe 4-5 groups of 15-20 each). A seminary would make sense. They were certainly happier than I would have expected since most people in the group were hiking in dress shoes.

We saw the seminary students coming down the Lion's Head Trail one year. They looked as clean as I felt dirty. One of the young men had a tissue wrapped around his hand. At the junction with Tuckerman, I offered to dress it, did so, and he blessed me afterwards. I dunno...

 

[Seeker]

Yes, they were spread out into groups, but each group wasn't all that far from the other. That said, they were very pleasant. It was midweek, so I had hoped for perhaps a little solo time (or just me and perhaps only my 10 closest friends) on the summit, but one can never expect that on Lafayette. It was all good. They came up and down the same trail (OBP).

 

[Billy]

August 2006. Here they are coming down Lafayette toward Greenleaf Hut. Most of them are still in the trees. Viewed from the hut, they looked like a long white snake making its way down the mountain.
Here's what I remember about them:
- very quiet
- very polite
- most didn't have any backpack/gear.......most just carried a water bottle
- nice young guys....it didn't bother me one bit that there were alot of them. Any day of the week I'd rather share a summit with a group of 40 nice people versus a group of 3-4 loud obnoxious jerks. It's not the size of the group that matters, it's the people in the group.

 

[Neil]

The younger "me" would be complaining about this but now it makes me happy to see others (even throngs) out enjoying our beautiful natural world.

When I think "solitude" Franconia Ridge on a weekend doesn't immediately come to mind.

The more people on the trails = more awareness of their existence & hopefully more support of funding and preserving our natural areas.

This is an excellent point. It does bring to mind a question. When do people start loving something to death?

One can suggest that even if you amassed a group of 20,000 people and had them snake their way along Franconia Ridge in a 20 kilometer long file that once they were gone nothing would have changed. In that light, are regs that restrict group size an attempt to improve the outdoors experience of a limited number of people (ie. to protect people from people) or to protect the resource from people? Some of both?

FWIW, this group plans on staying in rented condos. They will contribute to the local economy.

 

[peakbagger]

Certain trails in the whites unfortunately are written off to tourists like the FRT loop, Tuckermans ravine, Lions Head and the Ammo. The fall back is harden them with rock to prevent significant degradation. I dont see group size as getting enforced beyond what is already in existence in the whites as arguably 50 pairs of individual groups of two do about the same damage as one group of 50. The likelyhood of a group being any more or less responsible than individuals can be debated on either side. Groups can reinforce bad habits or good habits.

Long ago the whites issued permits for popular wilderness areas, once the tickets were full, no one else was allowed into the area. I was just starting to hike in the area when the permits were abolished, but I heard many stories that there were too many loopholes. The BSP experience is great but I dont see how it could work or be supported in the whites.

 

[TCD]

Similar situation with the start of the trail from Paradise on Rainier. The ease of driving access and the proximity to Seattle resulted in high traffic. There was a choice of letting the trail deteriorate into a mud trench; limiting access by turning people away; or hardening the trail. I think they made the right choice, hardening the trail - it's actually paved, like a city bike path. Trails are trails. Financing this kind of work is tough, though, nowadays.

 

[Tom Rankin]

Similar situation with the start of the trail from Paradise on Rainier. The ease of driving access and the proximity to Seattle resulted in high traffic. There was a choice of letting the trail deteriorate into a mud trench; limiting access by turning people away; or hardening the trail. I think they made the right choice, hardening the trail - it's actually paved, like a city bike path. Trails are trails. Financing this kind of work is tough, though, nowadays.

I wouldn't know, it was under 10 feet of snow when I visited!

 

[Red Oak]

Long ago the whites issued permits for popular wilderness areas, once the tickets were full, no one else was allowed into the area. I was just starting to hike in the area when the permits were abolished, but I heard many stories that there were too many loopholes. The BSP experience is great but I dont see how it could work or be supported in the whites.

For some maybe the Baxter experience is not that great?Her are some numbers http://baxtertrails.blogspot.com/2013/03/park-use-by-numbers-1972-2012.html
I have no issue with how Baxter deals with stuff,maybe lower the price of the firewood for campsites?Interesting how "less" people might be going to Baxter.The charts seem to be prone to error.

 

[MadRiver]

For some maybe the Baxter experience is not that great?Her are some numbers .

This August will be my 8th week long trip to Baxter and I can honestly say I cannot think of a time when I had a problem with the rangers or the regulations.

 

[Mike P.]

August 2006. Here they are coming down Lafayette toward Greenleaf Hut. Most of them are still in the trees. Viewed from the hut, they looked like a long white snake making its way down the mountain.
Here's what I remember about them:
- very quiet
- very polite
- most didn't have any backpack/gear.......most just carried a water bottle
- nice young guys....it didn't bother me one bit that there were alot of them. Any day of the week I'd rather share a summit with a group of 40 nice people versus a group of 3-4 loud obnoxious jerks. It's not the size of the group that matters, it's the people in the group.

I've seen this, they are dressed in white robes chanting Doom, Doom...as they climb the mountain and this big barbarian guy thins the herd. He did say He'll be back! (really)

Looks like he has too any pretty female friends to have this group be affiliated with the Catholic Church. (That said I barely can get by a french menu & trust me, I know menus!) They have a link to a peakbagger named Alex who has 13/46 in the ADK's. Thinking they need an Owl's Head in NH, or Allen or the Sewards trip to help limit the group sizes.

It will make a mess of the parking, that's for sure. I'm doing an overnight at Greenleaf later in June. (thankfully or I'd have to brush up on the "Riddle of Steel" yet somehow, the krummholz of woe sounds very lame) I'll have to think more about getting there early so we are not parked overnight on the ramp.

 

[peakbagger]

Not the only large group http://www.meetup.com/hvhikers/events/92845622/

132 folks signed up for Barnes Field Memoral Day

The reputation is they plan big trips but party so late the night before that many of their hikes start late and get called short.

 

[Mike P.]

Not the only large group http://www.meetup.com/hvhikers/events/92845622/

132 folks signed up for Barnes Field Memoral Day

The reputation is they plan big trips but party so late the night before that many of their hikes start late and get called short.

How many SAR tales start similar. "got a late start, didn't feel our best, so we were moving pretty slow, missed the early morning weather report...." (OR when you say, they plan big trips, the emphasis is on big and little or no actually planning hence "meet-up" not plan on being there, not plan on being ready, like when I meet friends at a bar.... )

Apparently they have learned the USFS & even the town police & probably even the State Police in that area can't control 132 people without overreacting so they more or less, let them be. yep, that's progress. (& years ago, I was one of the people who organized groups of 10-15 through VFTT, okay it was 17 for Moriah) That's up to the weather & Darwin....

 

[Trail Bandit]

Be careful what you wish for. I have visited a number of great hiking destinations that were under the full control of "THE MAN". Do you really want to let the forest service dictate how many people can go to any particular trail or area? Do you want to be stopped on the trail to show your permit? The government loves control so do not encourage them. Hey, this is live free or die NH. The group of young people in street shoes may get a wake up call on the way down the Falling Waters Trail and hopefully none will be injured or die. All of the kids will learn something from their experience. We have all been warned that the planned day on the Franconia Ridge (AKA RT. 93 High) may not give you the wilderness experience you were looking for. There are other places and they warned you well in advance. From what I have read here, this group is one of the best you would care to meet on the trail, except perhaps that there are a lot of them. They are good kids and we need more good kids.

 

[RoySwkr]

Long ago the whites issued permits for popular wilderness areas, once the tickets were full, no one else was allowed into the area. I was just starting to hike in the area when the permits were abolished, but I heard many stories that there were too many loopholes.

I remember Wilderness permits and don't believe they had any number limits but were just allegedly used to gather data, not sure how useful that was as one time the guy issuing the permit just copied the previous permit on the pad which was going an entirely different place. They were only good for one entry so the loop I did using Six Husbands/Great Gulf required 2 separate permits for a day hike as did the one up Dry River down Mt Clinton Trail. Not sorry to see them gone.