I Hate Down - Am I Missing Something?

[Tom_Murphy]

If you bought one of the thinner down jackets (thinking to use it as a shell or insulating later while hiking) it is probably too little insulation for a summit/emergency jacket.

BUT it will work well to stay warm in camp during the shoulder seasons and the colder summer nights. I also use my thin down jacket to extend my summer sleeping bag into the September and my shoulder season bag into late October/early November.

 

[Summerset]

So to all the down advocates out there I ask: am I using the coat wrong? Should it be an outer layer? Should I only be throwing it on when I am not moving for warmth? This coat has to be the most disappointing piece of gear I have bought in recent years. It eventually "repuffs" if I leave it hanging in the house for awhile but compresses quite easily. Are there things I should be doing to the coat to maintain it when not in use (other than taking it out of pack so it doesn't get all crushed up)? Jacket was fairly expensive so I hate to reduce it to "letting the dog out on cold mornings duty" but I'm not seeing the benefit to having it. What am I missing? I know wool is much heavier but I think it performs WAY better. If the light weight of down is the only benefit I don't think I'll be carrying on winter hikes, just summer hikes where far less clothing is needed and the light weight is beneficial for the warmth jacket can provide.

All of the other posters have said just about everything regarding the use of down while hiking, but you did ask about storage, etc.

Just like a down sleeping bag, your down jacket should not be stored compressed, either in a compression sack or self-stored into one of its own pockets. You were onto something when you figured out that when compressed down doesn't to its job. A very, very simple explanation is that down works by trapping very tiny pockets of air, thus insulating you and keeping you warm. (I'm sure it is more detailed than that, but for right now, that's enough.) Anyway, continual compression of the down is not the best thing for it (yes, I know, there is someone out there who stored their down jacket for years all compressed and it is still fine). Best to leave it hung up, uncompressed until you need to pack it into your pack.

Regarding wool, yes it is heavier, but has the distinct advantage of still performing well, even if damp unlike down. As a bonus, you get the lovely aroma of wet sheep if damp. You must find out what works for you and what doesn't. If you like the wool and are comfortable wearing/hiking in it, then by all means use it and don't worry too much about the extra weight, unless it truly is excessive and affecting your performance and enjoyment of the hike.

 

[sardog1]

On the subject of storage - I have three down jackets. Each is stored in a large plastic box with a lid and free to expand to its intended fluffiness (just as sleeping bags should be stored). I would never store a down jacket by hanging it.

 

[Ed'n Lauky]

Ditto to the above posts. One of the most comforting feelings I have when the weather seems to be getting worse, is that knowledge that I have in my pack something warmer I can put on if I should need it. Over the years I've only put the coat on a handful of times, but it was nice to have it when needed. I also carry in a plastic sack a pair of wool socks, wool long-johns and a light wool pullover shirt. That's in case I have a really extended stay and the base layers are wet from sweat. I have used the socks a few times, I've never had to use the long-johns or shirt but they're there.

 

[BobC]

So I'll follow up with another stupid question: does the down need to be nearer the body to be effective? In particular, If I'm wearing a base layer, microfleece and Goretex shell like I generally climb in can I put the down coat on right over everything when I stop and retain heat or do I need to get out of the shell, add the down coat, put the shell back on, etc. I tend to get colder than most people so I try to avoid having to undress to dress whenever I stop an then have to reverse the process when I'm ready to get going again. If it is 0 deg and breezy I can guarantee I won't be warm wearing my base layer, a microfleece and this coat.

I sweat a lot when I climb and I get cold really easily so I usually botch my layering. I usually stop at treeline to "gear up" for the conditions and usually find myself shivering with cold hands during this stop. Once I get going again I'm fine. I can't seem to dress light enough to minimize the sweating and stay reasonably warm while I am ascending so I tend to wear too much stuff and put up with the moisture to stay warm (which I realize could be problematic). I would have to break out a jacket every single time I stopped for more than a minute which is quite tedious.

It sounds like heat management is your main problem.

Are you wearing glove liners? I always wear glove liners under my gloves so that if I have to take my gloves off to gear up, my hands don't get so cold. If it's really cold out I wear mittens over the gloves liners instead of gloves; mittens will keep you warmer.

If you're having trouble finding the right amount of layering to minimize sweating but still keep warm, have you tried just removing your hat for brief periods? You lose a lot of heat through the top of your head...so oftentimes what I will do if I'm getting too hot is to just take off my hat and put it in my pants pocket for a while until I cool down. Or, get a jacket that has 'pit zips' under the arms that you can unzip for ventilation. Sometimes I'll even partially unzip the knee zippers on my zip-off pants to let in some air on my legs to cool down. What I'm trying to get at is that you might need to consider things that can cool you down or warm you back up without having to stop and take off your pack.

You also mentioned that if it's 0 degrees and breezy, you won't be warm wearing your base layer, microfleece and the down jacket. So perhaps your problem is that you need a jacket that blocks the wind better. I doubt any of those three items do much to block the wind. That's why in the winter I always carry my rain/wind jacket, plus that Mountain Hardwear Dragon jacket I mentioned before. I'm cheap, and I hated paying $175 for it, but it blocks the wind somewhat and has pit zips and a hood so it's worth it.

Check out this video from the summit of Mt. Eisenhower in February 2010 (I hope SilentCal doesn't mind me reposting it!). At the beginning of the video you can see me on the right, and I am zipping my rain/wind jacket on over the Mountain Hardwear jacket. That's two layers of wind protection, and I think I had on two layers of shirts under the jacket, and as you can see and hear from the video, it was fairly windy, but I was not cold.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Do89lZDeKeE

 

[DayTrip]

It sounds like heat management is your main problem.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Do89lZDeKeE

I have experimented a lot. I have a GoreTex rain shell that I usually wear over everything. Not really a winter shell per se but it is awesome at cutting the wind and keeping me dry (from the elements anyway, not sweating. Gore Tex doesn't breathe like I imagined it would but that is probably a function of my poor heat management) and has a lot of gear pockets I find useful. It lacks pit vents though so I usually leave it unzipped and just velcro a few of the outer tabs when I am exerting myself more and heating up.

I have to start skipping the hat too. My hair can look pretty horrifying when it is wet or windy, especially after I have worn a hat, so I generally have some sort of hat on all the time. When it is really snowy and "car washes" are a factor though I really dislike having no hat on. Suppose I should try the hood on the shell as an option to see if that is better or not.

I don't have glove liners at the moment. I usually wear a thin pair of gloves which keeps me warm while I'm moving and shed these for heavier gloves around treeline or if it is really cold. It is during that stop and changeover that my hands cool off dramatically, not while I am moving. Been looking for wool glove liners to use but haven't had much success yet.

Cool video! Thanks.

 

[Tom Rankin]

I usually wear a thin pair of gloves which keeps me warm while I'm moving and shed these for heavier gloves around treeline or if it is really cold. It is during that stop and changeover that my hands cool off dramatically, not while I am moving. Been looking for wool glove liners to use but haven't had much success yet.

If you have Raynaud's Phenomenon (as I do), invest in some chemical hand warmers. Activate them before you need them, it takes 10 minutes or so for them to heat up.

 

[marty]

I don't have glove liners at the moment. I usually wear a thin pair of gloves which keeps me warm while I'm moving and shed these for heavier gloves around treeline or if it is really cold. It is during that stop and changeover that my hands cool off dramatically, not while I am moving. Been looking for wool glove liners to use but haven't had much success yet.

Smartwool makes wool glove liners that you can buy on Campmor for $19.99. I have a cold hand condition and they work much better for me than synthetic liners.

The downside of these wool glove liners is durability. They wear out at the fingertips, so you need to be a skilled at sewing the holes or willing to buy several pairs. I do the latter and always carry three pairs on long winter hikes. I don't know if there are other wool glove liner brands that are more durable. If there are, please let me know!

Marty

 

[jfb]

I have experimented a lot. I have a GoreTex rain shell that I usually wear over everything. Not really a winter shell per se but it is awesome at cutting the wind and keeping me dry (from the elements anyway, not sweating. Gore Tex doesn't breathe like I imagined it would but that is probably a function of my poor heat management) and has a lot of gear pockets I find useful. It lacks pit vents though so I usually leave it unzipped and just velcro a few of the outer tabs when I am exerting myself more and heating up.

I have to start skipping the hat too. My hair can look pretty horrifying when it is wet or windy, especially after I have worn a hat, so I generally have some sort of hat on all the time. When it is really snowy and "car washes" are a factor though I really dislike having no hat on. Suppose I should try the hood on the shell as an option to see if that is better or not.

I don't have glove liners at the moment. I usually wear a thin pair of gloves which keeps me warm while I'm moving and shed these for heavier gloves around treeline or if it is really cold. It is during that stop and changeover that my hands cool off dramatically, not while I am moving. Been looking for wool glove liners to use but haven't had much success yet.

Cool video! Thanks.

Your problem is moisture management. Buy a LLBean classic anorak and wear it over wool sweaters.

 

[Lawn Sale]

I've seen those down jackets at Bean's and was unimpressed. They are nothing like the old down jackets in any way, more like urban wear than technical wear. I have three down jackets, an older LL Bean (which is HUGE), a MH, and TNF. I prefer the MH but it has no hood, the LL Bean is huge for wearing in the woods (I fell like the Stay-Puft marshmallow man), and TNF is good and usually gets the daily duty. I picked up the second two at Goodwill and the first one from the dump.

 

[dave.m]

I have experimented a lot.

Heh. Child of the 70s?

I have a GoreTex rain shell that I usually wear over everything. Not really a winter shell per se but it is awesome at cutting the wind and keeping me dry (from the elements anyway, not sweating. Gore Tex doesn't breathe like I imagined it would but that is probably a function of my poor heat management) and has a lot of gear pockets I find useful. It lacks pit vents though so I usually leave it unzipped and just velcro a few of the outer tabs when I am exerting myself more and heating up.

Personally, I never use GoreTex in the winter when below treeline. It's too sweaty. I do use it above treeline. Essentially, I put it on over my trail clothes (even my below treeline shell). Above treeline, my puffy parka is in the pack waiting to go on over everything when I stop above treeline.

Below treeline, I wear a windshirt with pit zips. For me, pit zips are mandatory. Won't winter hike/ski without them.

For me, hats are gauge. If I'm overheating with it on, it's an indication that I'm overheating my clothing. I *try* to adjust with opening chest and pit zips. Still, there are times when I still overheat. So I like a hat that I can clip to my sternum strap.

I don't rely on pockets on my shell and instead wear cargo pants of some sort.

The many other posters are correct, in the NE a down/big polyester jacket should only be needed during long stops. For short stops, putting it on over all your other clothing is appropriate because it is fast on and fast off (unless there is precip, in which case put it under your hard shell), but when camping I put it under my hard shell to protect the jacket and to keep snow off it.

I typically hike with a fleece vest, two fleece jackets (one wind blocking), and a parka-length hard shell*. (The wind blocking fleece jacket can be used as a soft shell.) This is versatile enough (I range from wearing all of it to wearing none of it) and warm enough that I have never needed to hike in my down jacket even on days with a high of -15F.

* The hard shell is sized to fit over a down jacket.

FWIW: I very rarely use a down jacket (I call my heavy one (4 inch loft) my "sleeping bag with sleeves"... ) on dayhikes. In winter school we were taught to keep our stops short enough that we wouldn't cool down enough to require the down--there are short stops and long stops, but no intermediate stops because of the time required to take out and stow the down.

BTW, I have had no difficulty keeping my down jackets dry here in the NE. However, if I hiked in the Pacific North West (which is much wetter than the NE), I'd most likely use polyester-filled jackets.

Doug

+1 on everything here. Doug's approach is close to mine.

http://home.comcast.net/~pinnah/DirtbagPinner/clothing.html#TORSO

One thing to add... I don't "stuff" my Primaloft jackets. Just shove then into the pack at the very top. Last-in/first-out.

Last thing... In the long run, I see down as the cheapest way to go. Down usually outlasts any synthetic insulation if you care for it well. Synthetics eventually go flat. The other issue is pack size. I'm 6'3" and wear XL jackets. My XL Marmot Primaloft Belay jacket fills my day pack. Just huge. That said, I use it with impunity and toss it in the snow and put it on when I'm steaming without a second thought. Trade offs.

 

[DougPaul]

I have experimented a lot. I have a GoreTex rain shell that I usually wear over everything. Not really a winter shell per se but it is awesome at cutting the wind and keeping me dry (from the elements anyway, not sweating. Gore Tex doesn't breathe like I imagined it would but that is probably a function of my poor heat management) and has a lot of gear pockets I find useful. It lacks pit vents though so I usually leave it unzipped and just velcro a few of the outer tabs when I am exerting myself more and heating up.

Wet is wet whether is comes from the inside (ie you) or the outside.

It sounds like you may be missing some of the basics of winter hiking:
* Below timberline, it is best to be just slightly cool. Just enough to avoid sweating. (On warmish days (ie 20F or above), I often have to strip down to my baselayer to dump heat.)
* Avoid sweating. If you are hot, reduce your insulation or activity level. (It doesn't matter how cold the air is...)
* Above timberline: I was taught to try to be slightly warm--it is very easy to dump extra heat if it is windy, often by just lowering a shell zipper an inch or two.
* Oh yes, and avoid sweating. (The colder the temps, the more important this becomes...)

I have to start skipping the hat too. My hair can look pretty horrifying when it is wet or windy, especially after I have worn a hat, so I generally have some sort of hat on all the time. When it is really snowy and "car washes" are a factor though I really dislike having no hat on. Suppose I should try the hood on the shell as an option to see if that is better or not.

You can lose/dump a lot of heat from your head. And we don't care what you look like--we'd much rather not having to rescue you because you got your clothing wet and didn't have the insulation when you needed it or became dehydrated. I have found that I can lose even more heat than I used to now that my hair is thinning...

FWIW, I don't like hoods--they can block my side vision and my hearing. I use a wool or polyester navy watch cap or balaclava first and only pull up the hood if they are insufficient (usually due to high winds). One of the advantages of these headgear is that they are easy to carry/shove in a pocket as needed. I also carry light and heavy (breathable) versions of both.

Doug

 

[--M.]

Ah, this thread went where I wondered if it would:

There's an element of fashion involved, but this topic doesn't work with hiking the way it does with going out in town.

How the hair looks is secondary to heat management;

The right layers make all the difference, but (again) prioritizing heat and moisture, not appearance;

Materials are key: my Precip layers do indeed breathe nicely and I mirror all the comments about wearing very little when under steam and making sure NOT to sweat to wetness. I use a heavier eVent shell in winter; it too breathes okay; heavier.

I only use down when stopped or in extreme conditions (treeline). I know it must be cared-for (i.e. multi-day sleeping bag trips); not gotten wet, not over-compressed for too long. But it works great for its job.

Glove liners and a host of glove permutations is important to heat management (don't sweat out your gloves!).

I was at the Loj lean-tos in the DAKs this past Friday/Saturday: I used every layer I could, including nesting double-wool socks into wool boot-liners into down booties. I nested one down sleeping bag inside another and wore my puffy coat to bed. Down was an important part of staying (almost) warm! It was -11*F at 3:30am Saturday (no, didn't sleep a wink, too cold). We bailed in the morning without hiking (very expensive non-trip!).

Down has its place (yayy)! I beg you to go experiment with what you've seen here and update us on your views!

 

[DougPaul]

Personally, I never use GoreTex in the winter when below treeline. It's too sweaty. I do use it above treeline.

Way back in winter school we were taught to keep our shells on and adjust our insulation layers underneath. I also found this to be sweaty (and this was a pre-GoreTex 60/40 (cotton/nylon) or 65/35 (cotton/polyester) shell) and now prefer to wear just my fleece without the shell if conditions permit. Much drier.

I don't rely on pockets on my shell and instead wear cargo pants of some sort.

I make heavy use of whatever pockets are available... A minor problem with jacket and shell pockets is that when you change layers, you also may need to move the pocket contents.

Doug

 

[TJsName]

I make heavy use of whatever pockets are available... A minor problem with jacket and shell pockets is that when you change layers, you also may need to move the pocket contents.
Doug

I actually hike with basketball shorts on over my pants. They meet up nicely near the knee with my gaiters, and have big pockets for gloves and whatnaught. I find it does well with heat regulation and comfort, but low marks for style.

 

[bikehikeskifish]

Just make sure you check all the pockets when you stuff things back in your pack (or when you hang things up to dry.) My favorite hat was missing for a while after one hike and I "found" it again in a pocket when I next wore the fleece I seldom wear except when bitterly cold...

Tim

 

[mirabela]

Two things to add to this interesting discussion of winter layering strategies --

1. Smartwool glove liners were mentioned a page back, as was their fragility and their price. I agree, they are great, and expensive, and fragile. You can get them at Sierra Trading Post, and if you wait for the right coupon you can knock the price down to around 8 bucks a pair. That's the time to buy five pair.

2. Forgive me if I'm missing it, but I don't think anybody has mentioned the Marmot driclime windshirt yet. In my experience that is one of the best and most versatile pieces of cold-weather clothing you can have. It can be a base layer, or a shell, or a mid layer, and it dumps moisture better than anything I've ever seen -- working hard, going uphill, the whole outside of it can be visibly wet while you're dry against the skin. I realize this started as a thread about down, but it's become a conversation about winter hiking comfort and safety, and this 10-ounce, softball-sized garment has more than earned its place.

 

[DougPaul]

I actually hike with basketball shorts on over my pants. They meet up nicely near the knee with my gaiters, and have big pockets for gloves and whatnaught. I find it does well with heat regulation and comfort, but low marks for style.

My 3-season zip-off leg pants have cargo pockets--I can (and do) carry a 24oz water bottle in a pocket. However, my winter pants (military surplus wool pants) just have ordinary pants pockets--decent but they don't match the cargo pockets. I suppose I could wear the zip-offs (minus the legs) over my wool pants. I even have a pair that approximately color-matches my wool so I wouldn't have to be embarrassed to wear them...

Doug

 

[DougPaul]

1. Smartwool glove liners were mentioned a page back, as was their fragility and their price. I agree, they are great, and expensive, and fragile.

Polyester glove liners may not be quite as nice, but they will last a lot longer.

Personally, I generally just wear wind-blocking fleece gloves (with high-friction gripping surfaces). Reasonably warm, reasonable dexterity, moisture tolerant, and rugged. And then if it gets too cold I switch to mittens. (FWIW, I used to ice climb in Daschstein boiled wool mittens.)

2. Forgive me if I'm missing it, but I don't think anybody has mentioned the Marmot driclime windshirt yet.

I have one, but I don't tend to use it in winter. Since I'm already carrying a waterproof breathable hardshell, I don't find it to be worth the extra weight. I have used it on local hikes (with no chance of precip) and it was fine for that. (Of course, I have a version with pockets, but they are a bit on the small side...) YMMV.

Doug

 

[Tom_Murphy]

Since we are drifting here a bit I will add a couple of addtional comments:

Below treeline, first I had to lose my fear of being cold and learn that if I am moving, I can generate plenty of heat. So start from the trailhead colder than maybe is comfortable.

Also, along with taking off the hat and opening any vents, I have found exposing my wrists and forearms by pulling up my sleeves, helps drop heat. I also like to hiker slower (or faster) to help regulate heat.

All of this is to avoid sweating but also to avoid having to stop and change layers.

Above treeline travel in winter, in anything less than a bluebird day, I treat it like a space walk. I don't expect to be able to stop and grab something from my inside my pack. So it is full protection before leaving the treeline as well as compass / map case lanyard around the neck, compass bearing taken, etc